God and a fraud?

[_mentalgymnast]

As I've mentioned before, I believe the CofJCofLDS is a special case. We may have to agree to disagree on that.

You're essentially saying that one of the reasons you believe the LDS church is true is because God wouldn't allow a fraud of such magnitude to exist.

When pointed out that other religious frauds of equal or greater magnitude exist, you say that the LDS church is a special case.

Not equal or greater magnitude. None of the other belief systems make the special claims that the LDS church does.

When you, yourself, say that God allows these other frauds to exist because they, in their own way, bring people to Jesus in a certain way, and then it's pointed out to you that the same could be said of LDS, you again, say the LDS is a special case.

Yes.

The only reason it's a special case is because you believe it's true. Hence, your entire argument is circular reasoning. The LDS church is exempt from the logic you apply to other faiths because it's true, and the fact that you exempt it from the logic you apply to other faiths is evidence it's true.

No. I believe in the plausibility of its truthfulness to be greater than anything else on the spectrum of religious belief. You have not demonstrated the LDS church is not a special case. It's claims ARE of greater magnitude than anything else on the religious spectrum.

I repeat, this is not well thought out.

Here's the deal. You can claim that I am falling into the trap of circular reasoning. Granted, it could be observed as such. But, if the CofJCofLDS is a special case (and you haven't convinced me or demonstrated otherwise), then circular reasoning doesn't apply because the truth claims of the church are of SUCH MAGNITUDE that IF IT IS NOT TRUE God can/could not let it stand. As I said earlier, on the assumption that God is love, it is unacceptable to me that He would let a fraud of the magnitude of Mormonism stand. Pres. Hinckley himself has said that if Mormonism is false it is the greatest fraud ever perpetuated on mankind. It doesn't even compare with Scientology or any of the other belief systems on the spectrum of religious belief.

The CofJCofLDS is a special case. This is where you and I will have to part ways I suppose.

You tell me to specify what God could do about atrocities, and then assert I'm supposed to help God.

Well, it's just that I haven't seen any atheist come up with any great suggestions yet. You would think that with the combined brain power of all you folks you could come up with something.

I'm dead certain that EV critics would assert that they are helping God by demonstrating the falsity of the LDS church, the same way you think the LDS church demonstrates the falsity of the catholic church.

It's not the same. They are pointing out differences in LDS doctrine as it compares with creedal Christianity. The LDS church is pointing out differences between Catholicism and Mormonism by appealing to divine intervention, revelation, and direct restoration of lost truths.

There's a difference.

Regards,
MG

[_beastie]

I'll have to reply later, mg, but I am still hoping you will also tell me which scientologist beliefs you view as NUTS.

[_truth dancer]

Hi MG...

No. I believe in the plausibility of its truthfulness to be greater than anything else on the spectrum of religious belief. You have not demonstrated the LDS church is not a special case. It's claims ARE of greater magnitude than anything else on the religious spectrum.

I'm having trouble with this.

You seem to be suggesting that the wilder the claims the more plausible the church?

Have you actually looked at the world's religions over the last four thousand or so years? I mean seriously Mormonism is nothing.. It would not even be on the chart in terms of length of existence, numbers of believers, or influence in the world.

If I am reading you right, you are suggesting that if the LDS church were not true, God would intervene and rid the world of Mormonism so the LDS church must be the one and only true one.

Since you do not believe he has intervened, (even though most of the world would disagree with you), if the LDS church were not true, what do you think God would do?

How would God let the world know the LDS church was not true?

If I agreed with all your assumptions (smile), I would answer this by suggesting God could allow the world to gather information that opposed some of the claims of the church (Book of Abraham, DNA, Book of Mormon for examples), bring new information to light so people would understand how the world works which is completely inconsistent with the church doctrines, and perhaps enlighten souls to move beyond the ideas of patriarchy, heirarchy, eliticism, glory, power, wealth. For starters.... :-)

~dancer~

[_mentalgymnast]

Hi MG... :-)

OK... you say that God stepped in to enlighten people with information that the Catholic church is not the true church... but it took a long time? Eighteen hundred years or so?

Well, maybe God is allowing the LDS church to go on for two thousand years before he steps in and tells the world that it is wrong.

Or if some have their way, two years or twenty. <g>

Or maybe all the folks that suggest the LDS church is wrong are in tune with God and in reality, God has indeed sent the message to the world that the LDS church is not the true church.

Or maybe God is helping us learn about the universe and nature so we will forget the nonsense of the past and live in harmony with reality as we let go of harmful myths.

I cannot discount that these are possibilities. They really do make some sense, don't they?

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Another point - the televangelist that you think God allows to continue using his son's name fraudulently because they do lead people to Jesus in some way are also usually teaching their flock that the LDS church is of satan.

But God allows that?

God does work in mysterious ways, I guess.

I've thought about that. I haven't come up with anything that really makes sense to me...except that God lets things go as they may with the hope that his children will seek after greater light and knowledge on their own.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Hi MG...

No. I believe in the plausibility of its truthfulness to be greater than anything else on the spectrum of religious belief. You have not demonstrated the LDS church is not a special case. It's claims ARE of greater magnitude than anything else on the religious spectrum.

I'm having trouble with this.

You seem to be suggesting that the wilder the claims the more plausible the church?

Magnitude and "wilder" are not synonymous. So no, I'm not suggesting that.

Have you actually looked at the world's religions over the last four thousand or so years? I mean seriously Mormonism is nothing.. It would not even be on the chart in terms of length of existence, numbers of believers, or influence in the world.

Yes to your question. I'm not sure what your point is in the rest of your statement. Although if Judeo/Christian dispensations have any validity to them I'd say "Mormonism" has been around along time.

If I am reading you right, you are suggesting that if the LDS church were not true, God would intervene and rid the world of Mormonism so the LDS church must be the one and only true one.

Since you do not believe he has intervened, (even though most of the world would disagree with you), if the LDS church were not true, what do you think God would do?

Yes to the first statement.

On to your second statement. The jury is out, at least for some people. Depends on which side of the fence you're on. What would God do? Well, what he appears to be doing in the eyes of some people. Trying to open the eyes of those deluded Mormons!

How would God let the world know the LDS church was not true?

Mormon Discussions
Recovery From Mormonism
Ex Mormons for Jesus
Southern Baptists
You!!
Mormons in Transition
CARM
Scratch
The Mormon Curtain
Vogel
etc.
etc.

If I agreed with all your assumptions (smile), I would answer this by suggesting God could allow the world to gather information that opposed some of the claims of the church (Book of Abraham, DNA, Book of Mormon for examples), bring new information to light so people would understand how the world works which is completely inconsistent with the church doctrines, and perhaps enlighten souls to move beyond the ideas of patriarchy, heirarchy, eliticism, glory, power, wealth. For starters.... :-)

You're all doing a good job! There's plenty of opposition. Keep it up. It provides everyone with a clear choice between alternatives. That's the way it should be. Opposition in all things.

If it's Ok, I'm not going to get into the "patriarchy, heirarchy, eliticism, glory, power, wealth" issues that are of concern to you. That would be another thread. I'm about spent for now on this one. It's Saturday and I better get about my other business of the day.

I'll check back later when I get time. I have an eight hour shift to work today and other chores and things to do in real life.

Take care,
MG

[_beastie]

Not equal or greater magnitude. None of the other belief systems make the special claims that the LDS church does.

So what? Any religion that is based on the idea that it has special provenance with God in some way other religions do not teaches its own unique story of why that is so. All you are doing is claiming that since the LDS story is different from, say, the JW story, that makes it special in some way that allows it to be held to a different standard.

Of course the respective believers of the others faiths will protest that their story is more special, too. The only reason you think that the LDS claims are more special in a way that allows them to be judged by a different standard is because you believe in it.

But the entire premise of your argument begins with “if the LDS church were a fraud”…To be consistent, you must continue to approach your argument in that vein. You cannot suddenly switch midstream and make special pleading for the LDS church because you happen to believe in it.

This is part of the reason I pressed you to tell me what scientology beliefs you found to be NUTS. I actually agree that many of their teachings are nuts, by the way. But the difference is that I can see your beliefs are just as nutty, and you can’t. You can’t for the same reason that you suddenly start special pleading for the LDS church midstream in your own argument which has, as its first premise, “if the LDS church were a fraud”.

If the LDS church were a fraud, it’s just one more of many religious frauds. Why does God allow any of them to stand? You’ve given several reasons why, yourself, including this latest:

God lets things go as they may with the hope that his children will seek after greater light and knowledge on their own

This is a perfectly reasonable possibility for a theist to assume, and I imagine it is the stance most assume when faced with the idea of fraudulent religions. But, again, you won’t apply this standard to the LDS church. Why?

Because:

No. I believe in the plausibility of its truthfulness to be greater than anything else on the spectrum of religious belief. You have not demonstrated the LDS church is not a special case. It's claims ARE of greater magnitude than anything else on the religious spectrum.

You are special pleading for the LDS church because you find its claims more plausible. And, by the way, its claims are of no greater magnitude than any other “one true” religion. Just different details.

So tell me, mg, you find the idea that a man can put a stone in a hat, and see buried treasures, but can’t quite get to them because the ghosts that guard them make them slip into the earth more plausible than the idea of xenu stacking the bodies of his extraterrestrial enemies in volcanoes on the earth? You find the idea that putting special oil on someone’s head and saying a special prayer more plausible than an e-meter?

Yes? The only reason you do is because they are your beliefs. I assure you outsiders would find them as implausible as scientology’s claims.

Well, it's just that I haven't seen any atheist come up with any great suggestions yet. You would think that with the combined brain power of all you folks you could come up with something.

Atheists can’t come up with great suggestions for an omnipotent being stopping these great harm that occurs every minute on this planet because atheists know that the idea of an omnipotent being is a logical fallacy from the get-go.

But I’ll put on a believer hat for a minute, and use some of the arguments I’ve seen believers use in other instances: perhaps God could unleash some sort of nasty virus that targets the specific population engaging in behavior that he finds so egregious. Perhaps he could unleash a natural catastrophe on that particular population, like a tsunami or hurricane. Or, perhaps he could strike individual people dead with heart attacks. After all, he has no problem ordering his followers to kill specific individuals.

It's not the same. They are pointing out differences in LDS doctrine as it compares with creedal Christianity. The LDS church is pointing out differences between Catholicism and Mormonism by appealing to divine intervention, revelation, and direct restoration of lost truths.

There's a difference.

The only difference is the difference in vocabulary associated with specific story. To pretend that catholics and Baptists don’t believe that their relative groups are led by divine intervention and revelation is nonsense. It’s just that their story differs as to how God conveys that information.

Again, you are special pleading because the story of Mormonism is different than the story of other “one true” religions. Of course it is. But, according to your first premise in your argument, you must approach this argument as IF the LDS church were a fraud, so you must put aside your natural bias for your own beliefs long enough to ask if God would allow it to continue.

Besides, maybe God can’t control what Satan does, and Satan started up the church masquerading as an angel of light to lead people astray. It’s up to the valiant warriors of the true God to help Mormons learn to resist Satan.

[_truth dancer]

Hi MG...

Hi MG...

No. I believe in the plausibility of its truthfulness to be greater than anything else on the spectrum of religious belief. You have not demonstrated the LDS church is not a special case. It's claims ARE of greater magnitude than anything else on the religious spectrum.

I'm having trouble with this.

You seem to be suggesting that the wilder the claims the more plausible the church?

Magnitude and "wilder" are not synonymous. So no, I'm not suggesting that.

ME: I'm trying to figure out why you think the LDS church's claims are of more "magnitude," than others. I truly don't understand what this means or why it is significant. It seems to me there have been and are religions throughout history who believe they have the one and only true way.

Have you actually looked at the world's religions over the last four thousand or so years? I mean seriously Mormonism is nothing.. It would not even be on the chart in terms of length of existence, numbers of believers, or influence in the world.

Yes to your question. I'm not sure what your point is in the rest of your statement. Although if Judeo/Christian dispensations have any validity to them I'd say "Mormonism" has been around along time.

ME: With all due respect.. (smile) it doesn't seem like you have really studied other religions (from their perspective). Have you spent years with a Buddhist monk? A guru teaching Vedanta? A Rabbi?

My point is that I truly do not see anything of more "magnitude" in the LDS church and in the grand scheme of things the LDS church is nearly insignificant. In other words, you ask why God would let it continue? Maybe God hasn't even noticed it? (smile) Compared with the rest of the world, it would be virtually unnoticeable.

If I am reading you right, you are suggesting that if the LDS church were not true, God would intervene and rid the world of Mormonism so the LDS church must be the one and only true one.

Since you do not believe he has intervened, (even though most of the world would disagree with you), if the LDS church were not true, what do you think God would do?

Yes to the first statement.

On to your second statement. The jury is out, at least for some people. Depends on which side of the fence you're on. What would God do? Well, what he appears to be doing in the eyes of some people. Trying to open the eyes of those deluded Mormons!

How would God let the world know the LDS church was not true?

Mormon Discussions
Recovery From Mormonism
Ex Mormons for Jesus
Southern Baptists
You!!
Mormons in Transition
CARM
Scratch
The Mormon Curtain
Vogel
etc.
etc.

ME: Well, if this is how you think God would work then indeed he has shown that the LDS church isn't correct. I'm happy to be in the same list as Dan Vogel! (smile) However, neither one of us would claim God spoke to us to tell us the LDS church isn't true.

Do you think it is possible that maybe God would give information to all sorts of people throughout the world, helping them understand the universe, existence, and life? Maybe the general knowledge of the world would move toward a deeper and more accurate truth that allows humankind to release unhealthy stories?

Or maybe God is very unhappy with all the churches that broke off from the original true church and little by little He is going to make sure they disappear... but he gives them a few hundred, or thousand years to fall?

If I agreed with all your assumptions (smile), I would answer this by suggesting God could allow the world to gather information that opposed some of the claims of the church (Book of Abraham, DNA, Book of Mormon for examples), bring new information to light so people would understand how the world works which is completely inconsistent with the church doctrines, and perhaps enlighten souls to move beyond the ideas of patriarchy, heirarchy, eliticism, glory, power, wealth. For starters.... :-)

You're all doing a good job! There's plenty of opposition. Keep it up. It provides everyone with a clear choice between alternatives. That's the way it should be. Opposition in all things.

Me: Not sure in what I am doing a good job... giving you an idea how God may move the world toward truth IF God exists and IF God thinks there should be intervention? If I am doing a good job at this, then I am pleased to know about it! :-) However, I am not making such a claim just giving an idea! :-)

If it's Ok, I'm not going to get into the "patriarchy, heirarchy, eliticism, glory, power, wealth" issues that are of concern to you. That would be another thread. I'm about spent for now on this one. It's Saturday and I better get about my other business of the day.

Ohhh I did not intend to go off on this tanget! :-) I have had a busy day too! Chat with you later on! (smile)

I'll check back later when I get time. I have an eight hour shift to work today and other chores and things to do in real life.

Take care,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Not equal or greater magnitude. None of the other belief systems make the special claims that the LDS church does.

So what? Any religion that is based on the idea that it has special provenance with God in some way other religions do not teaches its own unique story of why that is so. All you are doing is claiming that since the LDS story is different from, say, the JW story, that makes it special in some way that allows it to be held to a different standard.

Of course the respective believers of the others faiths will protest that their story is more special, too. The only reason you think that the LDS claims are more special in a way that allows them to be judged by a different standard is because you believe in it.

But the entire premise of your argument begins with “if the LDS church were a fraud”…To be consistent, you must continue to approach your argument in that vein. You cannot suddenly switch midstream and make special pleading for the LDS church because you happen to believe in it.

This is part of the reason I pressed you to tell me what scientology beliefs you found to be NUTS. I actually agree that many of their teachings are nuts, by the way. But the difference is that I can see your beliefs are just as nutty, and you can’t. You can’t for the same reason that you suddenly start special pleading for the LDS church midstream in your own argument which has, as its first premise, “if the LDS church were a fraud”.

If the LDS church were a fraud, it’s just one more of many religious frauds. Why does God allow any of them to stand? You’ve given several reasons why, yourself, including this latest:

God lets things go as they may with the hope that his children will seek after greater light and knowledge on their own

This is a perfectly reasonable possibility for a theist to assume, and I imagine it is the stance most assume when faced with the idea of fraudulent religions. But, again, you won’t apply this standard to the LDS church. Why?

Because:

No. I believe in the plausibility of its truthfulness to be greater than anything else on the spectrum of religious belief. You have not demonstrated the LDS church is not a special case. It's claims ARE of greater magnitude than anything else on the religious spectrum.

You are special pleading for the LDS church because you find its claims more plausible. And, by the way, its claims are of no greater magnitude than any other “one true” religion. Just different details.

So tell me, mg, you find the idea that a man can put a stone in a hat, and see buried treasures, but can’t quite get to them because the ghosts that guard them make them slip into the earth more plausible than the idea of xenu stacking the bodies of his extraterrestrial enemies in volcanoes on the earth? You find the idea that putting special oil on someone’s head and saying a special prayer more plausible than an e-meter?

Yes? The only reason you do is because they are your beliefs. I assure you outsiders would find them as implausible as scientology’s claims.

Well, it's just that I haven't seen any atheist come up with any great suggestions yet. You would think that with the combined brain power of all you folks you could come up with something.

Atheists can’t come up with great suggestions for an omnipotent being stopping these great harm that occurs every minute on this planet because atheists know that the idea of an omnipotent being is a logical fallacy from the get-go.

But I’ll put on a believer hat for a minute, and use some of the arguments I’ve seen believers use in other instances: perhaps God could unleash some sort of nasty virus that targets the specific population engaging in behavior that he finds so egregious. Perhaps he could unleash a natural catastrophe on that particular population, like a tsunami or hurricane. Or, perhaps he could strike individual people dead with heart attacks. After all, he has no problem ordering his followers to kill specific individuals.

It's not the same. They are pointing out differences in LDS doctrine as it compares with creedal Christianity. The LDS church is pointing out differences between Catholicism and Mormonism by appealing to divine intervention, revelation, and direct restoration of lost truths.

There's a difference.

The only difference is the difference in vocabulary associated with specific story. To pretend that catholics and Baptists don’t believe that their relative groups are led by divine intervention and revelation is nonsense. It’s just that their story differs as to how God conveys that information.

Again, you are special pleading because the story of Mormonism is different than the story of other “one true” religions. Of course it is. But, according to your first premise in your argument, you must approach this argument as IF the LDS church were a fraud, so you must put aside your natural bias for your own beliefs long enough to ask if God would allow it to continue.

Besides, maybe God can’t control what Satan does, and Satan started up the church masquerading as an angel of light to lead people astray. It’s up to the valiant warriors of the true God to help Mormons learn to resist Satan.

Beastie, thanks for your well thought out response. I've read it a few times trying to get a firm handle on it. I think I know what you're trying to get across. I don't have any serious quibbles with what you've said other than the suggestions that you'd make for God to fix things. I would hope there would be a better way although some of these methods have apparently been used in the past by individuals acting in the name of God.

I think that without incontrovertible evidence that is observable in a repeated/testable fashion with the physical senses it is nigh unto impossible to prove things of a spiritual/religious nature. I can't prove to you why I believe Mormonism is farther along the truth spectrum than Scientology. OTOH, I can't prove to myself that Mormonism is farther along the truth spectrum than a peaceful/thoughtful belief system such as Taoism or Buddhism as it relates to producing individuals with good hearts and right motives. Everything becomes relative.

When all is said and done I think we have to travel back in time a bit farther than the 1800's and a young boy named Joseph Smith who claimed to restore Christ's church. We look at ancient history and make a judgment call based upon the available evidence as to whether or not a God has interacted in some way with the world. It is not possible to prove incontrovertibly that a god has done this. The evidence at times seems to say otherwise. No interaction or intervention. Except for scripture which purportedly was written by prophets which has some special dispensation to speak for god. So to believe in God is a leap of faith in itself. To then believe in Jesus as Savior on top of that becomes another GIANT leap of faith. Again, no incontrovertible evidence one way or the other.

Same thing pretty much with the CofJCofLDS.

So I agree, when all is said and done we end up choosing that which we feel meets our needs, fits our paradigm of what goodness consists of (as TD as often mentioned), what seems to be "of God", and then fly with it. I don't know that we can really convince each other of the "error of our ways" or the rightness of our ways.

If the LDS church is a fraud, I personally cannot conceptualize of a god that would let it go. Truth claims such as sealings for eternity and the continuation of the seeds, promises of eternal life in the highest level of the celestial kingdom of God, becoming gods, and so forth are high and mighty claims. No other church makes these unique claims. This is what I was referring to when I used the descriptor word, "magnitude". If god was to let these claims continue on unnoticed or unremediated and reinforced in the temples...I would have to bag the whole idea of god.

But my number one assumption/belief is that there is a God.

So I look at possibilities. And as I look at them I am convinced that there is plausibility in the Mormon story being true. Can I prove it is? No. Just as you cannot prove it's a fraud even though you have tried your darndest to do so thusfar. Yes, there are bumps, there are warts, there are kinks. But there's some really cool stuff too. The gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the church, if practiced and lived, really does help produce saints that could progress towards godhood.

I'm totally willing to acknowledge that the LDS church, even if true, is just a small piece of a large, artfully constructed mosiac that God is in the process of creating as his purposes unfold upon this earth. There are some here that seem to think that just because the LDS church numbers are small relative to the world's population that this somehow negates the possibility of its truth claims having any meaning/validity. I don't see that.

God is great, God is good.

He holds the whole world in his hands. Not just LDS Christians. Even you Beastie...though you won't admit to it<g>.

Regards,
MG

[_truth dancer]

Hi MG...

If the LDS church is a fraud, I personally cannot conceptualize of a god that would let it go. Truth claims such as sealings for eternity and the continuation of the seeds, promises of eternal life in the highest level of the celestial kingdom of God, becoming gods, and so forth are high and mighty claims. No other church makes these unique claims. This is what I was referring to when I used the descriptor word, "magnitude". If god was to let these claims continue on unnoticed or unremediated and reinforced in the temples...I would have to bag the whole idea of god.

(bold mine)

This is what baffles me MG! :-)

Have you read anything about the truth claims in Islam? How about the Egyptians?

How about the Eastern teaching that we ARE GOD? That is a pretty extraordinary idea don't you think? Upwards of a billion people embrace this idea.

There are extraordinary claims all over the place. Seriously, the LDS church is not in any way unique in terms of amount of extraordinary claims.... a few minor details but nothing really outstanding, in my opinion.

I just can't figure out why you think the extraordinary claims of magnitude (which are not unusual at all) have anything to do with truth. It is probably just my limited brain but I seriously don't get this point. :-)

Secondly, lets say the church is not true. So what? The members of the church are not doing a ton of harm to the world, they are relatively peaceful for the most part, they are trying to live good lives. Why would God care at all about this handful of people who are doing their best to be good people even if they don't have the one and only true church? Why would he intervene in any way?

You say you "can't conceptualize God letting it go,"... why? Seriously what is the harm?

In the scheme of things the LDS church hardly impacts the world in any significant way... so why would God care at all?

Now, lets take Hitler ... most would agree he harmed a significant number of people, and God didn't step in then, so why would God intervene when a few million people are believing something incorrect but not harming anyone and actually helping people to live basically decent lives?

I can't figure out why you think God should wipe out the church if it isn't true. This idea that God, (or humans), destroys those who do not believe in the right God, or eliminates wrong belief from off the face of the earth, seems to be a common remedy for non-belief, or wrong belief.... maybe Moses had something to do with this phenomenon? ;-)

I just do not get it. :-)

I am trying though!

~dancer~