Schryver Responds

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_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

In the very first sentence of verse 3, the word “country” appears (“… get thee out of thy country …”). Mr. Metcalfe transcribes the word as: count[ ]y

Yes, because the "r" is clearly missing. How is this an "incorrect transcription"? Had Brent transcribed it as "county," without further comment, I could see how this could be called an error. But he was being cautious and pointed out the missing letter because it is missing. Whether the scribe intended the word to be understood as "country" is beside Brent's point, I think. I think the point is that there is a discrepancy between the two paragraphs, and intended discrepancy or not, the discrepancy is there.
The brackets indicating that the “r” was omitted.

The "r" is not there so technically Brent is not in error to point this out. The photo Will provided doesn't prove otherwise, even if the scribe really did intend to write country. You cannot assume existence based on intent. If I intended to take out the trash, it isn't safe to assume I actually did it. Here is an example of 18th century ligatures, which involve two distinct letters:
Image

Now here is the example of a ligature according to Will:

Image
And to be precise, the brackets signify that "X is missing in this text, but present in a parallel text" and this furthers the point Brent was making, which seems to have completely escaped Will.
However, having previously examined this particular portion of the document with much care, it was evident to me that, in fact, what we are seeing here is a “ligature,” which in text-critical parlance indicates an example where two or more letter-forms (in this case, the "ry" pair) are joined as a single glyph.

But without two letters joining to become one, there can be no ligature. Where is the "r"? Now the "r" was clearly intended to be there, but intention is beside the question of existence. Will can insist that the scribe was rushing through the process and just left it out due to haste, but that is fine and perfectly consistent with the critical model. In fact, I'm pretty sure that is part of Brent's point; that the scribe was rushing. Brent never denied that the scribe intended to transcribe "country." Of course that was his intention. I intend to sign my name legibly too, but I rarely do.

Brent was simply being cautious and was not giving in to "bombastic certitude"; something William can't refrain from as evidenced in this thread.
That we are dealing here with a ligature seems quite certain, for in the example of “country” in the preceding paragraph, we can see that Williams comes close to replicating the ligature in question:
Image

How does this make his previous ligature "quite certain"? In this photo one can see the "r" is clearly present. In the former it is absent.
I wanted to address another argument Will is making over the flock/flocks discrepancy:
Our readers may recall that the page in question contains a duplicated paragraph of the text for Abr. 2:3 – 5. Why a document that Metcalfe purports to be the product of an oral dictation would contain a repeated paragraph is a question we have and will yet again consider, but for now let’s merely examine the third transcription error I have identified. In the first instance of the paragraph, Frederick G. Williams writes the word “flocks”:

Will wants to take credit for something I had previous noted on the 23rd of May and something Dan Vogel pointed out almost two years ago!!

Last week I said: "I would only add that the first paragraph says Sarai while the second Sarah and the first says flocks while the other flock."

In October of 2006, in a debate with Will, Dan Vogel said:

"If Williams had simply recopied the same paragraph, why does the first read "Sarai" but the second "Sarah"? Another variant is flocks/flock. This is hard to explain if he was copying the same MS Q twice."

And Will is over at MADB gloating that he just "identified" it through his "careful" examination! Hilarious.

But in any event, if Brent thinks both are flocks, at least Brent is not interested in counting this as evidence in favor of the critical argument, with bombastic certitude. How does it help the apologetic argument if one says flock and teh other flocks?

Will is so deaf, dumb and blind in his ambition to retaliate against Brent, he has lost all sight of the apologetic he is supposedly defending. He doesn't realize that he is only making the critical argument stronger by pointing out yet another discrepancy between the two paragraphs. Nowhere in his rant does he explain for us how any of this stuff strengthens a particular apologetic argument. It appears to be nothing more than a "gotcha" to show everyone that Brent is quite human.

Having said all that, it remains to be proved if Will has really shown Brent to be in error. I'll let Brent speak on his own behalf.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Droopy
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Post by _Droopy »

Will is such an idiot, and he doesn't have the testicles to come here and deal with the four clear indisputable points where I showed he flat out lies in his apologetics. Instead, he wants to make mountains over lint about whether an irrelevant word like this was meant to read "county" or "country"! Yeah, that proves Brent is totally discredited! How does any of the above support his copyist theory?

This is the kind of irrelevant s*** they spend all their time on.

Will just can't get it through his head that he has become "irrelevant" to the debate. He hasn't an ounce of credibility left, no matter how many "ligatures" he scrubs out of his "inferior photos." What is the apologetic value in Will's post? Why has he spent the last week working on this, but refuses to address the four points where he flat out lied? The apologetic value is found in his underlying attempt to suggest Brent's credibility has somehow been diminished.

Brent is probably waiting to see if Brian is going to make an argument any time soon. Will is simply not worth responding to. And it drives him nuts, which is why he is always using the pundits arena as a pulpit. As if anyone even pays attention to him.



Too bad you can't remain intellectually serious or civil enough for a long enough period of time such that you could join the discussion at MAD and demonstrate some degree of knowledge in the area under discussion with those who really do both understand what they're talking about and have the intellectual temperament necessary for a substantive analysis of the details of the evidence in a calm and reasoned manner.

What you clearly do not realize is that it can be clearly seen that your desperate anxiety over the fact that your claims and those of Metcalfe are so far overblown as to their degree of certitude as to be little more than tendentious have turned you into nothing more than an intellectual shill for your and Metcalfe's own self justificational edifice of bad conscience.

Let's call it Post Apostasy Stress Disorder.

Its really so transparent Kevin, you really should just try making your case and forget about calling everyone who does not see the evidence the way you do a stupid idiot.

You would then at least look like a serious intellectual.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

What you clearly do not realize is that it can be clearly seen that your desperate anxiety over the fact that your claims and those of Metcalfe are so far overblown as to their degree of certitude as to be little more than tendentious have turned you into nothing more than an intellectual shill for your and Metcalfe's own self justificational edifice of bad conscience.

Unfortunately for you, none of your buddies at MADB have demonstrated this to be the case. Will is yapping about nothing as usual, while the meat of the matter gets ignored. This is what pisses me off. I challenged him to an intellectual debate and he balked. His bark is always louder than his bite. The guy has flat out lied about the mss and needs to be held accountable. I proved this. None of you have dealt with these arguments. This is why he prefers to hide out over at MAD while spending his and wasting everyone else's time on stupid rants like the one above. Nobody there is going to call him out on his own BS and he knows it.

But maybe if you continue to cheerlead for him here, he might get up the courage to face his BS over here.
you really should just try making your case and forget about calling everyone who does not see the evidence the way you do a stupid idiot.

There are plenty of people who don't agree with me, I'm sure. People I have never called idiot. But Will insists on putting himself in the spotlight and he cannot do so without egging on the critics. He deserves to have his dishonesty and idiocy exposed for what it is. He brought this on himself when he came over here and tried egging me on with his "apostate" rhetoric, that only Mormons like yourself could appreciate. He should know better by now, because he is out of his league. He always comes here acting like a tough bull dog for just a moment, and then, as usual, he ends up whimpering away like a three-legged poodle. What would he do without the refuge of MADB?

And I couldn't give a rats ass if you, the notorious idiot of numerous villages, finds me "intellectual." If anything, I guess I should take it as a compliment.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_cksalmon
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Post by _cksalmon »

Droopy wrote:Its really so transparent Kevin, you really should just try making your case and forget about calling everyone who does not see the evidence the way you do a stupid idiot.

You would then at least look like a serious intellectual.


Or, indeed, "leftist," "communist," etc.

Pot. Kettle. Black.
_KimberlyAnn
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Post by _KimberlyAnn »

Dart, I think the trouble is that your insults lack variety.

It takes a lot of skill to lob an indirect, but effective insult, or to insult someone so sweetly that it doesn't dawn on them that they've been insulted until later. That kind of insulting finesse is usually possessed only by females and cannot be expected of you, but perhaps you should use a few synonyms of your favorite insult? I'm taking the liberty of listing some for you.

nitwit
simpleton
imbecile
moron
thick-wit
block-head
dunce
numbskull

Personally, I like to call brutish, uncultured men "troglodytes", or "trogs" for short, so I understand that you have a favorite insult of your own. I do, too. But, variety is the spice of life, or so they say, so why not pick a few new insults from my list or create some of your own? Who knows? It might even be fun!

KA
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Dart, I think the trouble is that your insults lack variety.


I like to keep it simple for the simpleminded.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Droopy
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Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Post by _Droopy »

Or, indeed, "leftist," "communist," etc.

Pot. Kettle. Black.



I do not recall ever calling any 0f the serious lefties here idiots or stupid. Intellectually or morally vacuous yes, but not idiots (and one can become intellectually vacuous just by absorbing much of what's been traditionally taught in our public schools and by the mainstream media quite without being, cognitively speaking, dumb).

I get called names for no other reason than just hinting at conservative positions.

May ten thousand Jumping Spiders dance on your Bronchial Avioli.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
_Emeritus
Posts: 9826
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Post by _Droopy »

Dartagnon's insults lack variety because of the negative, self absorbed hostility he brings to any discussion of Mormonism. A good dose of Groucho, Rickles, or Python can only come from one who is both literate and confident in his positions, but wants to stir the pot a little nonetheless.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_dartagnan
_Emeritus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 pm

Post by _dartagnan »

On the contrary, I made the decision more than a year ago to just let the KEP issue die until Brent publishes his book.

I was somewhat dragged back into the fray. All of my threads on the topic have been responses to Will's various bombastic pronouncements that usually include my name.

But Will doesn't want a one on one debate. He can't hack it.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Brent Metcalfe
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Post by _Brent Metcalfe »

Hi folks,

For those who are interested, I've posted a reply to Will here.

Kind regards,

</brent>
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