"Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

[_The Nehor]

Uhhhhh....the leaders of the Church do have a pretty good grasp of what the rank and file are interested in and want. Last year Elder Scott had a meeting for the YSA in the area and it was very interactive. He first started by putting on a big board what he and the Brethren thought were the things most pressing on the YSA and then asked for more ideas from the congregation. He then addressed each in turn and took questions.

They may not have addressed your concerns Harmony but you're NOT one of the rank and file. You're basically an apostate with her name on the rolls. The concerns you gave are held by almost no one in the Church and to see the changes you want would be to see changes very few want.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I'm simply interested in the consequences of your actions; ergo, the reason I pointed out the GoodK debacle but not the sinking of Atlantis, et al.

So am I. That's why I mentioned the sinking of Atlantis, etc.

The denial continues ....

[_Rollo Tomasi]

But my viciousness toward GoodK's family is what really floats his boat.

By the way, here's a picture of me (I'm on the right) discussing GoodK with his stepdad:

You have no shame.

[_harmony]

They may not have addressed your concerns Harmony but you're NOT one of the rank and file. You're basically an apostate with her name on the rolls. The concerns you gave are held by almost no one in the Church and to see the changes you want would be to see changes very few want.

I most certainly am one of the rank and file, Nehor. I am no more an apostate than you are.

My concerns are just as valid as anyone else's concerns. Just because they aren't your concerns doesn't mean they aren't valid.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

...or dropping them a letter.

Official policy is for the rank & file not to send them letters. And if you do send a letter, it and any response is sent to your bishop (not to you) to deal with.

You see, in harmonology, the Brethren never get out into the world to visit any of the wards and stakes and have utterly no contact with ordinary members of the Church.

But don't tell anyone outside the audience what they said (sharing notes, etc. from such meetings is also an official no-no).

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Uhhhhh....the leaders of the Church do have a pretty good grasp of what the rank and file are interested in and want.

They are generally clueless, in my opinion.

Last year Elder Scott had a meeting for the YSA in the area and it was very interactive. He first started by putting on a big board what he and the Brethren thought were the things most pressing on the YSA and then asked for more ideas from the congregation. He then addressed each in turn and took questions.

Perhaps a nice 'dog and pony show,' but did anything come of it to your knowledge?

They may not have addressed your concerns Harmony but you're NOT one of the rank and file. You're basically an apostate with her name on the rolls.

Harmony is as 'rank and file' as they come, in my opinion. She is certainly no "apostate." The Church is as much hers as it is mine, yours, DCP's or Tom Monson's.

The concerns you gave are held by almost no one in the Church and to see the changes you want would be to see changes very few want.

I completely disagree.

[_karl61]

I wonder if those top fifteen were rotated like bishops if they would get deeply depressed after being released and possibly go inactive.

[_harmony]

I said they aren't listening, and there is no mechanism by which the rank and file can access them.

And I've said that you're wrong.

And I've seen no evidence that you are right.

The idea isn't that I or any other rank and file member should go on bended knee to them, asking for crumbs (and an appointment for a private audience).

"Going on bended knee, asking for crumbs," is evidently harmonic for dialing them up, going for a meeting with one of them (either in Salt Lake City or somewhere else around the world), or dropping them a letter.

A phone call they won't answer, a meeting that will never take place, a letter that no one will read.

Any other ideas?

The idea is that they should come to us, asking for our input.

You see, in harmonology, the Brethren never get out into the world to visit any of the wards and stakes and have utterly no contact with ordinary members of the Church.

I live in an area with 9 stakes within 100 miles. That's 90 wards. I know people in every stake. There have been no visits by the Brethren since the temple was dedicated almost 10 years ago. And when the temple was dedicated, no one ... none... of the rank and file members had access for a private meeting. And there was certainly no mechanism by which members could, if they wanted to, make suggestions or express concerns.

I'm saying there should be a mechanism by which rank and file members can give input into the workings of the church at the highest level, without fear of retribution and with the knowledge that someone at the top of the food chain is listening.

The telephone and the U.S. Postal Service haven't yet reached harmony's section of North America. But they say that electricity should be there by mid-summer 2009, so there's hope.

See above.

And the way we'd know they were listening was because we'd see change.

When harmony's demands have been met, and only then, we'll know that the Brethren are listening to the rank-and-file members of the Church -- among whom, rather oddly from my point of view, harmony evidently counts herself. Her demands are their demands. Her will is their will. L’Église c’est harmonie.

All is not well in Zion, Daniel. You can ridicule me all you want, but all is not well. There are changes the church could make that would not cause any destruction to doctrine at all (things like allowing all interested family members to watch temple marriages and opening the books), but the Brethren don't make those changes. I'm hoping it's because they don't know how destructive those policies are, rather than that they don't care.

[_harmony]

...or dropping them a letter.

Official policy is for the rank & file not to send them letters. And if you do send a letter, it and any reponse is sent to your bishop (not to you) to deal with.

You see, in harmonology, the Brethren never get out into the world to visit any of the wards and stakes and have utterly no contact with ordinary members of the Church.

But don't tell anyone outside the audience what they said (sharing notes, etc. from such meetings is also an official no-no).

Thanks, Rollo. I sometimes forget salient points. Thanks for reminding me.

No letters, Daniel. None. No phone calls either.

[_harmony]

Uhhhhh....the leaders of the Church do have a pretty good grasp of what the rank and file are interested in and want. Last year Elder Scott had a meeting for the YSA in the area and it was very interactive. He first started by putting on a big board what he and the Brethren thought were the things most pressing on the YSA and then asked for more ideas from the congregation. He then addressed each in turn and took questions.

Did they allow you to take anything of theirs off the list? Or were you required to keep all of theirs, and given the opportunity to add a few of your own?

I can tell you this: there have been no Elder Scott-types here, talking to the 7 wards/branches full of YSA here. None. If there had been, I'd know about it. I have a daughter in one of those branches, and she'd love to have had a bit of a set-down with a GA, so she could tell him exactly what she thinks of the YSA program. (what she thinks of the SA program is quite graphic, but I'm trying to give up swearing, so I won't post it).