First vision... is this really true?

[_Nevo]

The concept of being forgiven for your sins is hardly a groundbreaking idea.

No, it isn't. Why should D&C 20:5 contain "a groundbreaking idea"?

It is quite likely that both accounts used this independently without any reference between each other.

No, it isn't, if you look at the context.

[_Sethbag]

But why Joseph would invent such a story and then keep it largely to himself for a decade or more is something you guys will have to discuss among yourselves.

Well, for starters, it looks an awful lot like he made it up, and "enhanced" it over time so that it got better and better.

So, for instance, if D&C 20:5 really did reference the same event, what started out as just a manifestation of the forgiveness of sins ended up, after increasingly enhanced versions, including God and Jesus appearing to him and telling him that his mission would be to be God's right-hand man and deputy on Earth, and tell everyone else what God wanted them to do.

The First Vision is a supreme example of Joseph Smith "puffing" his spiritual resume.

[_Inconceivable]

Evidently the story had a limited circulation throughout the 1830s.

But why Joseph would invent such a story and then keep it largely to himself for a decade or more is something you guys will have to discuss among yourselves.

Nevo,

Evidently the story had a non-existant circulation throughout the 1820's. Period.

This aspect of the first vision story just isn't a feelgood subject is it? Darwin's theory has a troubling missing link too.

I can appreciate why you've attempted to not discuss evidence of the first vision in the 1820's for the past 4 pages.

[_Nevo]

Well, for starters, it looks an awful lot like he made it up, and "enhanced" it over time so that it got better and better.

So, for instance, if D&C 20:5 really did reference the same event, what started out as just a manifestation of the forgiveness of sins ended up, after increasingly enhanced versions, including God and Jesus appearing to him and telling him that his mission would be to be God's right-hand man and deputy on Earth, and tell everyone else what God wanted them to do.

I've read nine accounts of Joseph Smith's First Vision that were recorded during his lifetime. Not one of them has Joseph receiving any kind of commission at all--much less as "God's right-hand man and deputy on Earth." Nor is there really any indication that the vision was "'enhanced' over time so that it got better and better." Obviously there is shift in emphasis after 1835 from personal forgiveness to the apostasy of the Christian churches, but the apostasy theme is there from the beginning.

• 1832: "I saw the Lord and he spake unto me saying Joseph <my son> thy sins are forgiven thee. go thy <way> walk in my statutes and keep my commandments behold I am the Lord of glory I was crucifyed for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life <behold> the world lieth in sin at this time and none doeth good no not one they have turned aside from the gospel and keep not <my> commandments they draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them acording to thir ungodliness and to bring to pass that which <hath> been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and Ap[o]stles behold and lo I come quickly as it [is] written of me in the cloud <clothed> in the glory of my Father" ("Joseph Smith History, 1832," in Dan Vogel, ed., Early Mormon Documents, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1996-2004], 1:28).
  
  
• 1835: "he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee, he testifyed unto me that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" ("Joseph Smith Recital to Robert Matthews, 9 November 1835," EMD 1:44)
  
  
• 1839: "I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right . . . and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the Personage who addressed me said that all their Creeds were an abomination in his sight, that those professors were all corrupt, that 'they draw near to me with their lips but their hearts are far from me, They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. He again forbade me to join with any of them and many other things did he say unto me which I cannot write at this time" ("Joseph Smith History, 1839," EMD 1:61).
  
  
• 1840: "He was informed, that his sins were forgiven. He was also informed upon the subjects, which had for some time previously agitated his mind, viz.--that all the religious denominations were believing in incorrect doctrines; and, consequently, that none of them was acknowledged of God, as his church and kingdom. And he was expressly commanded, to go not after them; and he received a promise that the true doctrine--the fulness of the gospel, should, at some future time, be made known to him; after which the vision withdrew" ("Orson Pratt Account, 1840," EMD 1:151)
  
  
• 1842a: "They informed him that his prayers had been answered and that the Lord had decided to grant him a special blessing. He was also told that he should not join any of the religious sects or denominations, because all of them were mistaken in their doctrine and not recognized by God as his church and kingdom. He was further commanded to wait patiently until a future time, when the true doctrine of Christ and the fullness of the gospel should be revealed to him" ("Orson Hyde Account, 1842," EMD 1:163).
  
  
• 1842b: "They told me that all religious denominations were believing in incorrect doctrines, and that none of them was acknowledged of God as his church and kingdom. And I was expressly commanded to 'go not after them,' at the same time receiving a promise that the fulness of the gospel should at some future time be made known unto me" ("Joseph Smith to John Wentworth, 1 March 1842," EMD 1:170).
  
  
• 1843a: "I then, addressed this second person, saying, 'O Lord, what Church shall I join.' He replied, 'don't join any of them, they are all corrupt.' The vision then vanished. . . ." ("Joseph Smith Interview with David White, 29 August 1843," EMD 1:182).
  
  
• 1843b: "They told me that all the religious denominations were believing in incorrect doctrines, and that none of them was acknowledged of God as his church and kingdom. And I was expressly commanded to 'go not after them,' at the same time receiving a promise that the fulness of the gospel should at some future time be made known unto me" ("Joseph Smith to I. Daniel Rupp, 1843," EMD 1:184).
  
  
• 1844: "Mr Smith then asked must I join the Methodist Church--No--They are not my People, [they] have gone astray there is none doeth good no not one, but this is my Beloved son, harken ye him, the fire drew nigher Rested upon the tree enveloped him comforted Indeavored to arise but felt uncommon feeble . . . ." ("Joseph Smith Recital to Alexander Neibaur, 24 May 1844," EMD 1:190).

[_Jersey Girl]

But he did tell someone: a Methodist preacher. And there may have been others. The preacher's negative reaction effectively discouraged further tellings, and his reluctance to relate the experience (which he interpreted primarily in terms of personal forgiveness of sins) probably increased when he became "entangled again in the vanities of the world."

Joseph Smith Rough Stone Rolling --Bushman
Page 41 gives this explanation for the preachers reaction.

"The preacher reacted quicly and negatively, not because of the strangeness of Joseph's story but [b]because of it's familiarity[/]. Subjects of revivals all too often claimed to have seen visions. IN 1826 a preacher at Palmyra Academy said he saw Christ descend "in a glare of brighness, exceeding ten fold the brilliancey of the meridian Sun." The Wayne Sentinel in 1823 reported Asa Wild's vision of Christ in Amsterdamn, New York, telling him that all denominations were corrupt. At various other times and places, beginning early in the Protestant era, religions eccentrics had claimed visits from divinity. Norris Stearns published an account in 1815 of two beings who appeared to him: "[i] One was God, my Maker, almost in bodily shape like a man. HIs face was, as it were a flame of Fire, and his body, as it had been a Pillar and a Cloud...Below him stood Jesus Christ my Redeemer, in perfect shape like a man."



If "subjects of revivals" were prone to making similar claims, what was unique about Joseph's claim, what makes it more true?

Was Joseph Smith the subject of revivals? When? Where?

[_antishock8]

Um. Sounds like the guy is making crap up on the fly. You know. Making stuff up. Like. You know. Tales.

Yore.

Con.

Conning.. Like... Gold digging, but with stories. You know.

[_JoetheClerk]

Since the first vision as taught in the LDS Church today is the keystone of belief of God, why didn't the early elders teach it?

Does the RLDS(community of Christ) have the same 'first vision' as the LDS? Do the various polygamous Fundamendalist Mormon groups?

The First Vision is so important to LDS teachings about God and Christ that is boggles the mind to think it was not taught from day One and was as important in its emphasis as The Book of Mormon.

This vision answers definitively the character of God and Jesus. Why not teach such a strong statement from the beginning?

[Anonymous]

If "subjects of revivals" were prone to making similar claims, what was unique about Joseph's claim, what makes it more true?

I'm not sure that there was anything unique about Joseph's claim. What was unique was what followed. As Bushman points out in his article, The Visionary World of Joseph Smith, none of the other visionaries went on to organize a church that "radically redirected people's lives" (193).

Was Joseph Smith the subject of revivals? When? Where?

See D. Michael Quinn, "Joseph Smith's Experience of a Methodist 'Camp-Meeting' in 1820."

[_Sethbag]

Nevo, you deserve a better reply from me, and I will deliver one. I need to go back and re-read all of the accounts of the first vision so that I can relate better the things that impressed on me, when I read them three or four years ago, that Joseph was making it up as he went along, and embellishing the story with each new telling. I'll try to get some time to do that in the next day or two.

[_JoetheClerk]

Whether or not the article is completly accurate the question is still there. When did the missionaries (and Church in general) start preaching the great truths of the First Vision? It is the core missionary teaching these days so would have been just as important then, wouldn't it?