Ghosts?

[_Buffalo]

Simon,

How do you think consciousness can exist after brain death? And why?

There are many theories. One is that, because consciousness is energy and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it has to "exist" somewhere, in some form.

I, of course, believe that our consciousness or "soul" or "spirit" returns to that from which it came; our spiritual home.

That's not a theory. That's called "wild superstitious speculation."

[_Simon Belmont]

That's not a theory. That's called "wild superstitious speculation."

Wait... you believe the Law of Consecration of Energy is wild superstitious speculation. LOL!

[_Jersey Girl]

Simon,

How do you think consciousness can exist after brain death? And why?

There are many theories. One is that, because consciousness is energy and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it has to "exist" somewhere, in some form.

I, of course, believe that our consciousness or "soul" or "spirit" returns to that from which it came; our spiritual home.

Hold on a second. If the brain is what generates the "energy" how can energy continue to exist when the transmitter is dead?

[_Jersey Girl]

Belmont,

I want us to address this separately.

I, of course, believe that our consciousness or "soul" or "spirit" returns to that from which it came; our spiritual home.

If you believe that the soul or spirit transcends at the time of death (assuming here) do you think it leaves the body before or after the brain dies?

And why do you think it?

[_Buffalo]

I never claimed to be an expert.

The athiest (you, in this case) claims to have all knowledge:

we know that consciousness cannot be sustained when certain conditions are not present in the brain. When the brain dies, there is no consciousness.

No, I just claim that we know the difference between consciousness and unconsciousness, and this can be detected with instruments. That's a far cry from claiming to have "all knowledge."

Do we know, or don't we, Buffalo? Have you constructed a device or invented a method by which we can measure actual consciousness and sentience? This device would need to measure the ability to understand ourselves, our surroundings, our level of interpretation of experience, feelings and emotions, in short, it would need to measure our level of awareness. Is there such a device?

Actual consciousness is always associated with certain brain activity. So yes, we've invented a device. It's not new technology.

Sentience can be determined by observation, intelligence tests, etc.

I was just stating something that's very obvious. Consciousness is dependent upon the functionality and life of the brain.

That is not obvious. That is not even demonstrated by any evidence.

I can prove my point of view is true. You cannot. There is not one documented case of consciousness during a state of brain death. If you can prove otherwise you will certain win a Nobel prize.

That is what all evidence says. You might just as well believe that the strength of physical muscles somehow will continue to exist longer after the muscles have decomposed. That would be just as fantastic.

False analogy. Poor logic, Buffalo.

It's a perfect analogy. The brain is an organ of thought. When the brain shuts down, thought stops. When muscles shut down, there is no more strength. This isn't a difficult concept. Try to think more clearly.

Electrical activity in the brain is an indicator of consciousness.

It's also an indicator of brain health or brain death. It is not an indicator of consciousness.

Please demonstrate that using credible evidence.

If you'd like to refute these facts, please demonstrate a single case of consciousness that existed after the death of the brain. I'll wait.

Well, there are NDEs, there is the Law of Consecration of Energy.

NDEs are not credible evidence of the existences of consciousness after death. The brain emits certain hallucinogenic chemicals as the body starts to die. That is a much better explanation for NDE stories than magical worlds full of dis-incorporated sentient apes.

The Law of Consecration is a religious principal, not a scientific law. Conservation of energy has nothing to say about magic. Decomposition of corpses is not a scientific mystery.

[_Buffalo]

That's not a theory. That's called "wild superstitious speculation."

Wait... you believe the Law of Consecration of Energy is wild superstitious speculation. LOL!

Again, the Law of Consecration was Joseph Smith's doctrine, and has nothing to do with science, but a lot to do with economics. If you mean conservation of energy, that has nothing to do with magical spirit people. The breakdown of corpses as they decompose is well understood.

[_Jersey Girl]

Belmont,

Okay...let me say first off that I honestly don't know what the hell I'm talking about and certainly cannot hold my own in this conversation the way The Dude could. So unless The Dude shows up, you're pretty much stuck with me as a participant.

Back when the Caylee Anthony case began, I became interested in murder cases and the forensics piece of that process. Stages of decomposition and then, eventually started studying the stages of death...I find all of this fascinating.

Last year I came across some information that I happened to bring to The Dude on a thread and if the search feature here were worth a crap, I could easily access it. But I can't so I just dug this up randomly off a google search.

Take it or leave it. Studies show that at the time of death, the last thing that happens in that process prior to decomposition, is that the brain fires off all it's neurons. Kind of like a cerebral fireworks display.

Here's a little something about that and I make no claims regarding the website that I pilfered it from.

Near Death Brain Activity
In 2009, L. S. Chawla and co-workers published a paper about near death brain activity, which provides great insight into near death experiences. They studied the brain activity of seven patients who were neurologically intact but critically ill, requiring life support. The brain activity was measured by bispectral index (BIS) which ranges from 0 to 100. A value greater than 90 indicates the awake state. 80 reflects some sedation. Between 40 and 60 is recommended for general anesthesia. Below 40 is the unconscious state. The value of 0 means complete silence of brain activity.

After the life support was withdrawn, the change in BIS was quite similar for all seven patients. The BIS gradually decreased to below 20 as the blood pressure decreased. Once the blood pressure became undetectable, the BIS suddenly increased from nearly 0 to around 80 and then abruptly dropped to 0. This BIS spike lasted only a few minutes.

Chawla and co-workers has suggested that the BIS spike at a level aound 80 may correspond to the brain activity when people had their near death experiences. The following section shows that the BIS spike is very likely to be the moment when the soul is being created.

http://www.web-books.com/eLibrary/ON/B0/B2/10MNearDeath.html

I find this more fascinating than I'm willing to admit. If one is a soul/spirit believer, I don't see the above as evidence of the "creation" of the soul as the article puts forth, I find it possible evidence of the soul/spirit transcending the body.

This is NOT the only web source for this information. It's the first one that hit when I searched for it. If anyone else has access to more information regarding research on this, I would seriously like to see it.

Having attended the death of a few folks in my life, I have witnessed the stages of death first hand. At this writing, I see no reason for skepticism regarding what the above article implies.

[_Simon Belmont]

No, I just claim that we know the difference between consciousness and unconsciousness, and this can be detected with instruments. That's a far cry from claiming to have "all knowledge."

Wait a second. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with what we mean when we say "consciousness." We do not simply mean being awake, we mean being aware of ourselves and our surroundings, having thought, and experiencing external stimuli.

So, yes, we can measure whether someone is awake or not, but we cannot measure consciousness.

Actual consciousness is always associated with certain brain activity. So yes, we've invented a device. It's not new technology.

There is no way to know that as an observer, unless you've invented a device that allows you to become someone else for a time.

Sentience can be determined by observation, intelligence tests, etc.

No, it can't. Sorry.

I can prove my point of view is true.

You've been trying in a sort of amateurish way on this thread. If you have the proof, then the leading neurological research institutions want it! I want it too!

You cannot.

I can subjectively demonstrate my assertions, yes.

There is not one documented case of consciousness during a state of brain death. If you can prove otherwise you will certain win a Nobel prize.

I give you the NDE of Pam Reynolds, who had a vivid near death experience while brain dead.

The case is stacking up against you, Buffalo.

It's a perfect analogy. The brain is an organ of thought. When the brain shuts down, thought stops. When muscles shut down, there is no more strength. This isn't a difficult concept. Try to think more clearly.

You're confusing thought with consciousness again.

Please demonstrate that using credible evidence.

The burden of proof is on you, my friend. I have demonstrated my position.

NDEs are not credible evidence of the existences of consciousness after death. The brain emits certain hallucinogenic chemicals as the body starts to die. That is a much better explanation for NDE stories than magical worlds full of dis-incorporated sentient apes.

NDEs are just one of the evidences for consciousness not existing merely within the confines of the brain. The Law of Consecration of Energy is another. That you think this law is a Joseph Smith thing is very telling about your knowledge on this subject.

[_Tarski]

No, I just claim that we know the difference between consciousness and unconsciousness, and this can be detected with instruments. That's a far cry from claiming to have "all knowledge."

Wait a second. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with what we mean when we say "consciousness." We do not simply mean being awake, we mean being aware of ourselves and our surroundings, having thought, and experiencing external stimuli.

So, yes, we can measure whether someone is awake or not, but we cannot measure consciousness.

Actual consciousness is always associated with certain brain activity. So yes, we've invented a device. It's not new technology.

There is no way to know that as an observer, unless you've invented a device that allows you to become someone else for a time.

Sentience can be determined by observation, intelligence tests, etc.

No, it can't. Sorry.

I can prove my point of view is true.

You've been trying in a sort of amateurish way on this thread. If you have the proof, then the leading neurological research institutions want it! I want it too!

You cannot.

I can subjectively demonstrate my assertions, yes.

There is not one documented case of consciousness during a state of brain death. If you can prove otherwise you will certain win a Nobel prize.

I give you the NDE of Pam Reynolds, who had a vivid near death experience while brain dead.

The case is stacking up against you, Buffalo.

It's a perfect analogy. The brain is an organ of thought. When the brain shuts down, thought stops. When muscles shut down, there is no more strength. This isn't a difficult concept. Try to think more clearly.

You're confusing thought with consciousness again.

Please demonstrate that using credible evidence.

The burden of proof is on you, my friend. I have demonstrated my position.

NDEs are not credible evidence of the existences of consciousness after death. The brain emits certain hallucinogenic chemicals as the body starts to die. That is a much better explanation for NDE stories than magical worlds full of dis-incorporated sentient apes.

NDEs are just one of the evidences for consciousness not existing merely within the confines of the brain. The Law of Consecration of Energy is another. That you think this law is a Joseph Smith thing is very telling about your knowledge on this subject.

Simon is stuck with a very naïve dualitistic notion of consciousness that ignores all the debunking done by guys like Daniel Dennett, Paul Churchland, António Damásio etc.

Simon also seems unaware of how our perceptual and conscious world depends on myriad specifics about the physical world and the physical structure of our bodies. None of it makes sense for a ghosts or in the context of an OBE.

Tell me this Simon, can a ghost see the blue sky and the green grass? How is this possible when our expereince of these things depends on everything from the nature of our retina to the temperature of the sun to the mass of an electron. Are there spirit electrons and spirit photons and spirit retinas that all parallel the physical?

Also, how the heck does conservation of energy say anything about this? I challenge you to make the slightest defense of that idea. Do you even know what energy is?

[_Simon Belmont]

Belmont,

Okay...let me say first off that I honestly don't know what the hell I'm talking about and certainly cannot hold my own in this conversation the way The Dude could. So unless The Dude shows up, you're pretty much stuck with me as a participant.

Neither do I.

Back when the Caylee Anthony case began, I became interested in murder cases and the forensics piece of that process. Stages of decomposition and then, eventually started studying the stages of death...I find all of this fascinating.

Last year I came across some information that I happened to bring to The Dude on a thread and if the search feature here were worth a crap, I could easily access it. But I can't so I just dug this up randomly off a google search.

Take it or leave it. Studies show that at the time of death, the last thing that happens in that process prior to decomposition, is that the brain fires off all it's neurons. Kind of like a cerebral fireworks display.

Here's a little something about that and I make no claims regarding the website that I pilfered it from.

Near Death Brain Activity
In 2009, L. S. Chawla and co-workers published a paper about near death brain activity, which provides great insight into near death experiences. They studied the brain activity of seven patients who were neurologically intact but critically ill, requiring life support. The brain activity was measured by bispectral index (BIS) which ranges from 0 to 100. A value greater than 90 indicates the awake state. 80 reflects some sedation. Between 40 and 60 is recommended for general anesthesia. Below 40 is the unconscious state. The value of 0 means complete silence of brain activity.

After the life support was withdrawn, the change in BIS was quite similar for all seven patients. The BIS gradually decreased to below 20 as the blood pressure decreased. Once the blood pressure became undetectable, the BIS suddenly increased from nearly 0 to around 80 and then abruptly dropped to 0. This BIS spike lasted only a few minutes.

Chawla and co-workers has suggested that the BIS spike at a level aound 80 may correspond to the brain activity when people had their near death experiences. The following section shows that the BIS spike is very likely to be the moment when the soul is being created.

http://www.web-books.com/eLibrary/ON/B0/B2/10MNearDeath.html

I find this more fascinating than I'm willing to admit. If one is a soul/spirit believer, I don't see the above as evidence of the "creation" of the soul as the article puts forth, I find it possible evidence of the soul/spirit transcending the body.

This is NOT the only web source for this information. It's the first one that hit when I searched for it. If anyone else has access to more information regarding research on this, I would seriously like to see it.

Having attended the death of a few folks in my life, I have witnessed the stages of death first hand. At this writing, I see no reason for skepticism regarding what the above article implies.

I think there is a lot of evidence for life after death, and I had never heard of this BIS spike before so thank you. One of my favorite articles which was recently highlighted on CNN is called "Evidence of Afterlife: Time.com"