All of the supernatural characters of Christianity

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_basilII
_Emeritus
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:24 pm

Re: All of the supernatural characters of Christianity

Post by _basilII »

Buffalo wrote:How would this process look different if it were just a fictional God evolving with the times?

I appreciate your thoughtful response, but I keep coming back to Occam's razor.

The way I see it is that the actual evolution of Christianity and/or Judaism is consistent with either view: that view that God is fictional and just reflects changing human culture, or that God chooses to reveal himself gradually through a historical process. Larry Hurtado in his book on the historical evolution of devotion to Jesus has a nice discussion of this very topic. The decision on which view to adopt would depend not only on one application of Occam’s Razor, but on the wider grounds for belief/disbelief in God.

Certainly the history of Judaism as recorded in the Hebrew Bible and the history of Christianity as recorded both in the New Testament and in subsequent documents should suggest to believers that their God does in fact work through a historical process. Both the Jewish and Christian faiths are historical faiths in the sense that they are not just associated with some timeless, cosmic myths or philosophical systems, but rather on the idea of a God who manifests himself to the world in an actual people, the Jews. For Christians that manifestation culminates in the physical person of Jesus. The early orthodox Christians were insistent on including in their early creeds that Jesus was ‘born of the Virgin Mary’ and ‘crucified under Pontius Pilate’ to emphasize this aspect of their faith. Jesus wasn’t just some allegorical mythic savior figure as was found in many of the popular mystery cults of the time. He was a real flesh and blood person who was born and died within historical memory, not in some distant and shadowy past.
_basilII
_Emeritus
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:24 pm

Re: All of the supernatural characters of Christianity

Post by _basilII »

consiglieri wrote:At the very least, she asks a good question--If Jesus were indeed completely different from what "all" the Jews expected of their predicted Messiah, why would his religion have gained such popularity considering his ignominious end?

Well, if his immediate disciples believed that they had some sort of post-death encounter with a glorified Jesus, that would go a long way in explaining it. The belief in a resurrection event is what breathed life into early Christianity and prevented Jesus from being viewed as just one more failed messiah. Or if you want to be cynical about it, a resurrection story was needed to account for Jesus' apparent failure.

As far as a political messiah goes, according to the Acts account even his own chosen apostles after the resurrection were still prodding Jesus about when he would 'restore the Kingdom' to Israel.
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: All of the supernatural characters of Christianity

Post by _Buffalo »

basilII wrote:
Buffalo wrote:How would this process look different if it were just a fictional God evolving with the times?

I appreciate your thoughtful response, but I keep coming back to Occam's razor.

The way I see it is that the actual evolution of Christianity and/or Judaism is consistent with either view: that view that God is fictional and just reflects changing human culture, or that God chooses to reveal himself gradually through a historical process. Larry Hurtado in his book on the historical evolution of devotion to Jesus has a nice discussion of this very topic. The decision on which view to adopt would depend not only on one application of Occam’s Razor, but on the wider grounds for belief/disbelief in God.

Certainly the history of Judaism as recorded in the Hebrew Bible and the history of Christianity as recorded both in the New Testament and in subsequent documents should suggest to believers that their God does in fact work through a historical process. Both the Jewish and Christian faiths are historical faiths in the sense that they are not just associated with some timeless, cosmic myths or philosophical systems, but rather on the idea of a God who manifests himself to the world in an actual people, the Jews. For Christians that manifestation culminates in the physical person of Jesus. The early orthodox Christians were insistent on including in their early creeds that Jesus was ‘born of the Virgin Mary’ and ‘crucified under Pontius Pilate’ to emphasize this aspect of their faith. Jesus wasn’t just some allegorical mythic savior figure as was found in many of the popular mystery cults of the time. He was a real flesh and blood person who was born and died within historical memory, not in some distant and shadowy past.


Both are plausible, but which is more likely? Which is the simplest explanation? And furthermore, why should God behave exactly as if he doesn't exist? Isn't the obvious answer because he doesn't?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_basilII
_Emeritus
Posts: 135
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 3:24 pm

Re: All of the supernatural characters of Christianity

Post by _basilII »

Buffalo wrote:Both are plausible, but which is more likely? Which is the simplest explanation? And furthermore, why should God behave exactly as if he doesn't exist? Isn't the obvious answer because he doesn't?

It doesn't strike me that God behaves exactly as if he doesn't exist. What do you mean by that? To me the apparent fact that the universe had a beginning and that the universe is fundamentally rational (mathematical) would be exactly what I would expect to see if indeed a Creator actually existed.


And if God existed what else would be different? No suffering? A resurrected Jesus permanently on world tour, letting everyone feel the prints in his hands? Magic rather than miracles, so that if I always do x then y will inevitably occur? (I pray that I find $100 on the sidewalk and there it is!) I don't think this issue is as straightforward as you imply. What a God-designed world, 'the best of all possible worlds', would actually look like in its details doesn't seem particularly obvious to me (beyond having a beginning and being rationally constructed).
_emilysmith
_Emeritus
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 10:16 am

Re: All of the supernatural characters of Christianity

Post by _emilysmith »

Milesius wrote:
emilysmith wrote:
...

I do agree that some correlations are perhaps over exaggerated, but that isn't to say there is a good reason behind the similarities between, say, Hercules and Jesus.

...

In the case of Jesus, we have a figure that did not originally have a corporeal form. The earliest Christians had never heard the story of Jesus of Nazarath, born in Bethlehem. The Gospels that made it into the Bible were a few of hundreds of documents that discussed Jesus. They were widely variable in how he was portrayed.
...



You are still full of **** I see.


What is your problem?

I suppose I feel compelled to prove you wrong, just to show everyone how much of an ass you are...

Hercules:
• born from a god (Zeus) and a mortal virgin mother (Alcmene).
• while still an infant, a jealous goddess, Hera, tried to kill him.
• performed miraculous deeds.
• descended into Hades.
• died in agony.
• rose again as a god.

Are you trying to suggest that there are no similarities? Or are you suggesting that the similarities between Jesus and Hercules exist because the Jews stole the story from the Greeks?

Either way, you would be wrong.


Did early Christians believe Jesus had a physical body?

• Paul records not one thing from an earthly life of Jesus.
• Clement is credited with the most important Christian text outside the New Testament, his First Epistle. It attributes to the Apostles themselves foreknowledge of career rivalry among Christians, who consequently institute "Apostolic succession" to maintain the peace of the Church. The epistle, important as it is in the gathering up of papal authority, says nothing of a historical Jesus.
• Barnabas says much about Enoch, Daniel, Moses, and what the Lord "hath revealed to us by all the prophets", but says next to nothing about Jesus.
• Papias, a 2nd century Bishop of Phrygia knew nothing of the 'Gospels'.


So, how do you explain early church leaders not having knowledge of many of the important elements of Christianity held as truth, today?

Rather than being a crybaby, you might consider engaging in discussion. Else we will all be forced to consider you a mental invalid and unworthy of future responses.
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: All of the supernatural characters of Christianity

Post by _Buffalo »

basilII wrote:
Buffalo wrote:Both are plausible, but which is more likely? Which is the simplest explanation? And furthermore, why should God behave exactly as if he doesn't exist? Isn't the obvious answer because he doesn't?

It doesn't strike me that God behaves exactly as if he doesn't exist. What do you mean by that? To me the apparent fact that the universe had a beginning and that the universe is fundamentally rational (mathematical) would be exactly what I would expect to see if indeed a Creator actually existed.


And if God existed what else would be different? No suffering? A resurrected Jesus permanently on world tour, letting everyone feel the prints in his hands? Magic rather than miracles, so that if I always do x then y will inevitably occur? (I pray that I find $100 on the sidewalk and there it is!) I don't think this issue is as straightforward as you imply. What a God-designed world, 'the best of all possible worlds', would actually look like in its details doesn't seem particularly obvious to me (beyond having a beginning and being rationally constructed).


God of the gaps is ultimately an argument from ignorance, and the gaps are always closing faster than believers can stuff God in to fill them. A supernatural explanation for nature isn't really necessary - we're doing just fine with naturalistic explanations.

What would a world with a real God look like? Sometimes, just sometimes, in tandem with all the reported miracles and healings, we'd be able to catch some evidence for them. Someone would catch an angel on film. Prayers for the sick would have a greater than placebo effect. There would be something that would stand out. 2000 years ago, people said that the saints were rising from the dead. If things like that happen, someone would provide credible documentation. As it is, God is more shy than Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster.

What would the world look like if there were no God? The answer is, no differently than it already looks like now.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_MrStakhanovite
_Emeritus
Posts: 5269
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:32 am

Re: All of the supernatural characters of Christianity

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

emilysmith wrote:Are you trying to suggest that there are no similarities?


I'd say that if there was similarities, they are very thin at best. Not even enough to begin to think some connection is plausible at all.
_mikwut
_Emeritus
Posts: 1605
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:20 am

Re: All of the supernatural characters of Christianity

Post by _mikwut »

Hello emilysmith,

I would be happy to civilly engage and discuss this matter with you. You state a thesis as follows:

I suppose, in short, that the supernatural characters are the product of two main factors; the synthesis of different theological figures from surrounding cultures and the human need for a symbology and iconography that provide hope and a way to better understand the world around them.


What source are you using for your claimed similarities and possible synthesis therefrom? Because the example you have begun with has been nearly universally dismissed by scholars and is woefully inadequate to substantiate your hypothesis. For example,

Hercules:
• born from a god (Zeus) and a mortal virgin mother (Alcmene).


Here is the legend, http://www.theoi.com/Text/Apollodorus2.html

Zeus was indeed a God, but although there was a period in the legend where Alcmene was to be preserved as a virgin it is clear from the legend that Zeus himself slept with her and before she bore Hercules she had indeed slept with Amphitryon because Hercules' "twin" brother Iphicles was fathered by Amphitryon. So unlike Mary who when she bore Christ according to the Gospels was still a virgin - Alcmene was not and the legend doesn't rely on it any way.

while still an infant, a jealous goddess, Hera, tried to kill him.


When hercules was eight months old Hera put a snake in his bed and Hercules rises up and crushes it, what is the comparison? That the a king attempted to kill all the children under two?

performed miraculous deeds.


Well, of a completely different sort than Jesus. He wasn't a miracle worker as Jesus was known to be, he was a warrior with superpowers or Michael Jordon-esque like fighting abilities - he never walked on water or turned water into wine or healed the sick.

descended into Hades.


Without even mentioning the contextual and meaning differences he did go to Hades with a task of retrieving the 3 headed dog, Cerbeus. So?

died in agony.


According to what source? First, according to all the sources I have read he didn't ever die at all. He did have a death scare you might say when he was poisoned but he doesn't die, he is granted eternal life by the Gods. He certainly doesn't experience anything similar to Jesus' death.

rose again as a god.


No. He did acsend to Olympus without actually dying, he lived among the Gods but he didn't "rise again" particularly in any effectually relevant or synonymous comparison to Jesus. See, http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/hercules.html

There are a few fringe scholars who still hold onto the "dying and rising God" motif comparisons, but most have agreed with J.Z. Smith when he says, "The category of dying and rising deities is exceedingly dubious. It has been based largely on Christian interest and tenuous evidence. As such the category is of more interest to the history of scholarship than to the history of religions." Some like Robert Price and Tryggve N. D Mettinger (his Riddle of the Resurrection) are examples, but even Mettinger recognizes the tenuousness of the idea, J.S. Burnett has studied Mettinger's thesis and concluded, "it is plausible but at best tenuous". And Mettinger himself seems to even agree when he says, "There is, as far as I am aware, no prima facie evidence that the death and resurrection of Jesus is a mythological construct, drawing on the myths and rites of the dying and rising gods of the surrounding world. While studied with profit against the background of Jewish resurrection belief, the faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus retains its unique character in the history of religions.....with respect to explaining the "unique" nature of the early Christian view of Jesus's resurrection the riddle remains" Mettinger, Riddle of Resurrection page 221.

Next, regarding Jesus and Paul you say,

Paul records not one thing from an earthly life of Jesus.


I would again be interested in your sources. I would agree the writings we have of Paul record relatively little about Christ's earthly ministry but most scholars agree that Paul viewed Jesus as a historical and recent entity to him. Paul specifically mentions James as "the Lord's brother" (Gal. 1:19). Paul notes (1 Cor. 15:1-3) that Jesus was buried, rose three days later, appeared to Cephas, to the "twelve" to five hundred then to James and the apostles and then to himself. The passage presupposes that many of those who saw the risen Jesus were still alive at the time Paul wrote this. He knew a lot of the life of Jesus, he knew Jesus was born and raised a Jew (Gal 4:4) and he was descended from Abraham and David (Gal. 3:16) He knew Jesus' disciples, and that Jesus was betrayed, (1 Cor. 9:5) he knew of the crucifixion (1:Cor 9:5). He knew of the meal instituted by Christ before his death (1 Cor. 11:23-25) He had adjectives describing the earthly life of Jesus (2 Cor. 10:1; Phil. 2:5-7). Jesus' historical life was held up as a model and an example that Paul preached (1 Cor. 11:1). There are many more examples.

Anyway, I am curious as to your response.

my best regards, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_emilysmith
_Emeritus
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 10:16 am

Re: All of the supernatural characters of Christianity

Post by _emilysmith »

Hercules was the first to pop into my mind. There are a number of versions of the story of Hercules. One of those versions names his mother, Alcmenes (also the name for the virgin goddess) as a virgin.

"The virgin Alcmene furnishes a case of a young woman claiming God as the father of her offspring, when she brought forth the divine Redeemer Alcides, 1280 years B.C."

"Male Associates: son, Alceides, who later became known as Heracles, Glory-of-Hera, (Latin variant: Hercules). He is sometimes said to be Virgin-born, though some say he was fathered by Zeus in the disguise of Alcmene's first consort Amphitryon. And twin son Iphicles, by Amphitryon himself. Her second consort was Rhadamanthys, Divining-with-a-Wand, one of the three judges of the dead (he resides in the Elysian fields)."


This detail of Hercules isn't all that important. We can name a number of virgin-born figures, but the point that I was making was that this wasn't necessarily reason to suggest that all aspects of the story were borrowed. I was just making a point that there are similarities, not just between Jesus and Hercules, but many other figures. The most important virgin-born figure (as it relates to synthesis into the Christian theology) to Jesus would be Mithra, born of a virgin in a cave.

But, to further address your concerns about Hercules:

Yes, Herod was what I was referring to.

"When Herod realised that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi." (Matthew 2:16)


Miraculous abilities are essential for any important divine figure. I don't think I need to make any connection to specific miraculous feats, again, because I am not saying that the story of Jesus is derivitive of the story of Hercules.

I suppose I could have been wrong, but I was under the impression that Jesus went to Hell and preached to the angels that had been cast down there. My Bible study is a little rusty, though. Now that i am picking through, I see that it is maybe just implied by Isaiah.

I have read in a number of places that hercules dies as the result of the poison from his arrow. A Googling of "Death of Hercules" yields a number of results.

"Hercules was married to Deianeira. Long after their marriage, one day the centaur Nessus offered to ferry them across a wide river that they had to cross. Nessus set off with Deianeira first, but tried to abduct her. When Hercules realized the centaur's real intention, Hercules chased after him and shot him with an arrow which was poisoned with Hydra's blood. Before he died, Nessus told Deianeira to take some of his blood and treasure it, since it was a very powerful medicine and: if she ever thought Hercules was being unfaithful, the centaur told her, the blood would restore his love. Deianeira kept the phial of blood.

Many years later after that incident she heard rumours that Hercules had fallen in love with another woman. She smeared some of the blood on a robe and sent it to Hercules by a servant named Leechas. When doing so, some of the blood was spilled on the floor and when the sun rays fell on it the blood begun to burn. Because of this Deianeira begun to suspect Nessus's advice and decided to send another servant to fetch Leechas back before he could hand over the blood soaked robe to Hercules. But she was too late. Hercules has already put on the robe and when he did so the blood still poisoned from the same arrow used by Hercules, burnt into his flesh. When he jumped into a near by river in hope of extinguishing the fire, it only made it worse. When he tried to rip off the robe from his body his organs were also ripped off with it. Furiously, Hercules caught Leechas and tossed him into the sea."


He was raised by Hera, and allowed to live in Olympus.

"When Hercules put on the tunic, it burned. He was in such excruciating pain that he wanted to die and had a funeral pyre built for himself. He then mounted it and had it lit. He died and went to the gods where he was reconciled with his tormenter, the queen of the gods, Hera. She allowed him to marry her daughter Hebe and live among the gods thereafter."


Remember, I was suggesting something more than an inheritance of other, older stories. However, I find it odd that you would be of the opinion that no divine figures have returned from death. Perhaps it is the semantics of the word "risen"? Either way, of the plenty of Gods that have returned to life. The one most relevant to the story of Jesus is the Semitic version of Adonis, who satisfies "risen" the way you intended it, since he dies with Winter and rises with Spring.

As to Paul, I was under the impression that, by his own admission, he never knew the person Jesus but, instead, based his entire faith on a vision he claimed came to him about Jesus’ resurrection. I suppose I will have to dig deeper, but it poses more of a mystery as to why early church leaders were unfamiliar with the "facts" about the life of Jesus.

Either way, as Moksha mentioned, others, including Dionysus shows remarkable similarities to Jesus.

Image

Image

Image

Moksha also mentioned Mithra:

Image

Image

In the 3rd century BC, the worship of Serapis became a state sponsored religion and the Ptolemies sought to apply as much mass appeal to the new god as possible. Some have even suggested that early Christians were indistinguishable from worshippers of Serapis.

Image

"Egypt, which you commended to me, my dearest Servianus, I have found to be wholly fickle and inconsistent, and continually wafted about by every breath of fame. The worshippers of Serapis are called Christians, and those who are devoted to the god Serapis, call themselves Bishops of Christ."

– Hadrian to Servianus, 134 AD (Quoted by Giles, Hebrew and Christian Records, vol. ii, p86, 1877)


Just from the images, you can see clear parallels between other deities of the time, as well as similarity in stories. You don't even need an explanation to find the Mithras Banquet image a little familiar.

To suggest that there are no similarities would be the equivalent of burying your head in the sand... truly. A crucified Dionysus 400 years before Christ in the same vicinity? A virgin-born Mithra whose members partake of his flesh just like the Christian sacrament? These are fairly specific parallels.

I, of course, understand the reluctance of believers to accept that a synthesis of these stories created their religion, but don't pretend that it isn't a possibility.
_MrStakhanovite
_Emeritus
Posts: 5269
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:32 am

Re: All of the supernatural characters of Christianity

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Mithra came out of a rock as a fully formed man...what books are you reading?
Post Reply