Franktalk wrote:thews wrote:You're confusing me Frank. You attempted to defend the Book of Abraham here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19774&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=210 before leaving without providing one shred of positive evidence for the Book of Abraham. You continue to assert that the doctrine of Joseph Smith is of God... am I to interpret your stance that the Book of Abraham was inspired scripture? ......
What I attempted to do on that thread was to explain my position about a piece of paper. I find no need to validate or invalidate something that means nothing to me. God has made it very clear that we are to come to Him by faith. I accept that. So some paper from Egypt will not be proof to support my faith. God does not make a paper trail leading to Him.
So if I'm reading you correctly here, you acknowledge the "paper trail" associated with a common pagan papyrus translated incorrectly doesn't prove Joseph Smith's truth claims false, just because it proves them false?
Franktalk wrote:Why is it that some expect perfection in what a prophet says? Are they not men with the same weaknesses that we have? We are told to test spirits, we are told to check the scriptures to see if something is true. Does this imply that there are problems with everything that comes our way? It sure does. Many read the Old Testament and come away feeling that God is mean and arbitrary. What they don't realize is that punishment given on earth allows mercy in the afterlife. Justice can not be tossed aside. This is why Jesus and the Atonement is so powerful. Justice is served for our sins if we give them to Jesus by faith. He suffered for us. But if we don't have faith then justice has to take place in another form. The easy way is to receive justice here on earth. I don't see why many don't see this. When I read scripture I always place the love of God as my lens that I view scripture through. It does change the way I see scripture and it does change what I take away from scripture as the message.
What I see you doing here is giving Joseph Smith a out for not being perfect. By what metric are you holding his truth claims to? Why not substitute "perfect" with "believable" and make the same comparison? Joseph Smith, using his seer stones in a hat, along with a common pagan papyrus is where your scripture comes from. This doesn't need perfection to weigh the truth claims, but if you need to rationalize why it doesn't hold up to basic logic, you can (if you choose) raise that bar to perfection to rationalize why it isn't true.
Franktalk wrote:I think Brigham Young said that he feared that the church would follow the words of the church leaders instead of following the Holy Spirit. This has huge implications. To me it means that the errors of men have and will creep into what the church leaders say and do. I expect this. Many try and place Joseph Smith and others as perfect beings. This is a huge mistake. Each thing they said must be tested and placed in proper order. Just as the Bible contains many stumbling blocks I am sure that the Book of Mormon does the same.
Brigham Young also claimed Adam was God and was a racist... he was also supposedly speaking to God. Does it make sense that God's message to him was wrong, yet he was actually communicating with God?
Franktalk wrote:As I read the Book of Mormon I find sections that are narrative and others that are more in line with Isaiah. I found 3 Nephi 20 to be one of these. But other sections do not contain a powerful message. Should I hold all of the Book in equal status? I think not. And since the Bible contains what we should do and what we should not do I look at all scripture to sort out the message. It is an error to assume that we can obtain all truth from scripture.
Just because a book mirrors the Bible (and actually plagiarizes it) doesn't make its truth claims positive. The truth claims are demonstrably false, and no matter how much you rationalize it, what you believe came from occult seer stones... you can't admit it.
Franktalk wrote:I will stop here.
Par for the course. In discussing Mormonism with those that know its true history, you can only hang on for so long before you simply must bail because it fringes on your cognitive dissonance. You didn't answer the one question I asked Frank... do you believe occult seer stones placed in a hat can actually provide "scripture" from Jesus Christ?