Lizard Jew wrote:I'm not calling you a liar. where can i see this?
The Initiatory reference is easy. Next time you go to the temple, volunteer for an initiatory. Pay close attention to what is being done, and what is being promised...and then realize that women are ordaining women with the exact same promises.
The references regarding early women of the Church administering to the sick, and Joseph Smith's establishment of the Relief Society are, I believe, available in "The History of Joseph Smith"' which is a Church approved source. Give me some time to find the exact reference.
it is an odd thought to think that god would have let the blacks get the priestood taken from them and never tell the prophet he was wrong.
i find that a little hard to believe.
this is basically saying that the prophet is'New Testament the prophet!
You have to remember a couple of things. Our time is not the Lord's time. In the Lord's time, the blacks not having the priesthood was not a very long time frame....probably about 15-20 minutes to how we relate time.
Prophets are still men...and they make mistakes all the time. Joseph Smith made mistakes. He couldn't translate because of his mistakes. Portions of the Book of Mormon were permenantly lost due to his mistakes. Moses made mistakes. His mistakes cost him being able to ever enter the Promised Land.
Sometimes, you have to look at the larger picture.
it is an odd thought to think that god would have let the blacks get the priestood taken from them and never tell the prophet he was wrong.
i find that a little hard to believe.
this is basically saying that the prophet is'New Testament the prophet!
You have to remember a couple of things. Our time is not the Lord's time. In the Lord's time, the blacks not having the priesthood was not a very long time frame....probably about 15-20 minutes to how we relate time.
Prophets are still men...and they make mistakes all the time. Joseph Smith made mistakes. He couldn't translate because of his mistakes. Portions of the Book of Mormon were permenantly lost due to his mistakes. Moses made mistakes. His mistakes cost him being able to ever enter the Promised Land.
Sometimes, you have to look at the larger picture.
I've never thought about it like that.
but it still is a long time to us here on this earth.
it is an odd thought to think that god would have let the blacks get the priestood taken from them and never tell the prophet he was wrong.
i find that a little hard to believe.
this is basically saying that the prophet is'New Testament the prophet!
Liz wrote:You have to remember a couple of things. Our time is not the Lord's time. In the Lord's time, the blacks not having the priesthood was not a very long time frame....probably about 15-20 minutes to how we relate time.
Prophets are still men...and they make mistakes all the time. Joseph Smith made mistakes. He couldn't translate because of his mistakes. Portions of the Book of Mormon were permenantly lost due to his mistakes. Moses made mistakes. His mistakes cost him being able to ever enter the Promised Land.
Sometimes, you have to look at the larger picture.
Lizard Jew wrote:I've never thought about it like that.
but it still is a long time to us here on this earth.
think of all the many blacks then?
must be a reason.
I don't have the answer to that one. I admit that I have not been very kind in my assessment of Brigham Young. I do think he has a lot to answer for.
Prophets are still men...and they make mistakes all the time.
First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group which has been selected by professional communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder. Not one in a thousand Americans--black or white--really understands the full implications of today's civil rights agitation. The planning, direction, and leadership come from the communists, and most of those are white men who fully intend to destroy America by spilling Negro blood, rather than their own. Ezra Taft Benson, Sept. 29, 1967
Lizard Jew, this is a fascinating article from Sunstone magazine which outlines the history of women and the priesthood. You can really see how society really plays into the evolution:
Sock Puppet wrote:Hi, liz. Hope you are enjoying your holidays, and your health is cooperating in that.
The part about elohim/jehovan only reveals to men what they are ready to receive is a good excuse for why society's moral advances outpace the moral advancements of revelations from elohim/jehovah. But then why does man need elohim/jehovah (much less the prophet and apostles) if man is readying himself just fine without them?
I think it is interesting that you think elohim/jehovah has made mistakes, realizes them, and hopes we do better. elohim/jehovah's hope is being realized. Mankind is doing a hell of a lot better job at moral development than elohim/jehovah.
Thanks for the kind words, Sock Puppet! :-)
Like I said, this is all "the gospel according to Liz"..so I may find myself burning in a fiery pit someday for all I know..LOL
My insights come from my own experiences of being a parent...and also from being in the unique experience of parenting both an 8 year old boy and two girls in their 20's at the same time. You gain a lot of different perspective.
As to your questions...I'm breaking them up into two questions:
Why does man currently need Elohim/Jehova?
I personally feel that God does answer prayers, and provides support when His children need it. Is it a perfect process? No. But I cannot deny that I have had prayers answered..and not just the "I can't find my keys" type of prayers.
The poem that continues to touch me is "Footsteps". I know that there are times when I have been carried.
One night a man had a dream. He dreamed He was walking along the beach with the LORD. Across the sky flashed scenes from His life. For each scene He noticed two sets of footprints in the sand. One belonging to Him and the other to the LORD.
When the last scene of His life flashed before Him, he looked back at the footprints in the sand. He noticed that many times along the path of His life there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed that it happened at the very lowest and saddest times of His life.
This really bothered Him and He questioned the LORD about it. LORD you said that once I decided to follow you, you'd walk with me all the way. But I have noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life there is only one set of footprints. I don't understand why when I needed you most you would leave me.
The LORD replied, my precious, precious child, I Love you and I would never leave you! During your times of trial and suffering when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you.
As to your second question...Why do we still need prophets and apostles? I think that they are still able to receive revelation in their own sphere of readiness, and that they are still effective in leading missionaries and teaching gospel principles. I also feel that there will be an eventual shift, and that you will see women also fulfilling roles as prophets and apostles...just as there were female prophets and apostles during the days of Christ.
Oh, that I might live so long as to see women and to see homosexuals treated the same as straight men by COJCOLDS.
Lizard Jew wrote:i don't know anything about why blacks couldn't have the priesthood before. i don't know why women can't either. all i know comes from the prophets. blacks were less valient, it isn't womens place, they have motherhood.
I think you may be inadvertently proving Liz's point that prophets make mistakes.
You are correct that it was a common trope that blacks were less valiant in the premortal existence as a rationale for their not holding the priesthood.
But this was the tail wagging the dog. It was never revealed that blacks were less valiant, but because blacks could not hold the priesthood, this argument was advanced as a basis, and gained currency in the Mormon Church.
That reasoning has been recently debunked by Elder Holland on PBS who stated quite clearly that the fence sitter argument was wrong, regardless of who may have said it in the past.
Which brings us quite naturally to women's equality.
It remains a current trope that women do not hold the priesthood because they have motherhood. But this is once more the tail wagging the dog, just as it was for the blacks.
Can you at least admit the possibility of a future apostle saying the same thing regarding women as Elder Holland has said regarding blacks?
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
So Holland Trump's Brigham Young? I thought Prophet trumped Apostle in the Mormon hierarchy?
Lizard Jew wrote:I've never heard of a woman getting the priesthood. when did this happen
Pay close attention next time you are in the temple.
In the Initiatory, women lay their hands upon other women during that process, and have complete authority to administer the blessings of godhood.
Also, as I stated previously, when Joseph Smith first established the Relief Society, it was an organization equal to the Priesthood, not an auxiliary. It was also common practice during the early days of the Church for women to administer to the sick.
Also, part of the Second Annointing is for the couple, once the husband's feet have been washed by one of the 12 in the temple and then blessed, is for them, in the privacy of their own home, for the wife to complete the process toward her husband. Must be some authority in the female there to do that.