For former Mormons who became atheists

[_Lightworker]

I will never convert to atheism because I have knowledge, beyond just belief, of the Divine. It is possible to attain knowledge.

What is this knowledge, and how did you obtain it? by the way I am not atheist, but agnostic with maybe a little atheist leanings.

Logic and reason can go a long way here, there is quite a bit of evidence for a God or what can be called that. I believe in multiple unified Gods personally, kind of like the Elohim concept (the "im" makes it plural in Hebrew"). Many Gods that are manifestations of the one God. It is a paradox. I think the best logical evidence for God is to study mystics cross culturally and see how similar their revelations are. Even that can only get a person so far. One has to have a mystical experience themselves to understand beyond reason.

Jesus contrasts the reason of human intellect with the mystical experience when he says "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Here is a wise teaching too: "...the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14-15

[Guest]

The heart is where the truth is. The mind will never figure it out, but it is possible to align the heart with the mind.

When you say "heart" do you mean emotion and feelings? Intuition...What?

I look at humans as a reflection of the universe. The heart of the universe is the Unity, the presence of God. It is eternal truth, unchanging. There is no time in this dimension, past present and future are all one. Everything that will happen has already happened from this perspective. This is beyond mortal comprehension but with that in mind, the heart of a human is also the heart of the universe. I am referring to the spiritual heart. A good way to look at it is the teachings of the chakras in eastern traditions. It is the heart chakra, not the physical beating heart. Physical and spiritual are one though, it is all composed of the same energy. Fundamentally there is no such thing as physical. There is no such thing as supernatural either. All is natural all is Spirit.

As Jesus taught in Luke "the kingdom of heaven is within you". Stop looking "out there" for evidence, and objective proof that can be shown to others. The evidence is within. That being said many objective proofs of Spirit can take place, they are called miracles, or siddhis in eastern traditions. I am witness to many. They are undeniable.

Yes, intuition and feelings/emotion are one way Spirit communicates. Just as vicious cycles of ignorance can make a person more and more ignorant, the reverse is also true, experimenting with faith and intuition can lead to greater and greater proofs. Atheists seem to ignore this. They brush spiritual phenomena that they personally experience aside thinking it must just be some mechanical process of chemicals working together. The chemicals in the body certainly react to Spirit, but perhaps that is because there is really no separation between Spirit and matter. Everything is harmonious to a degree.

[_SteelHead]

Your definition of heart is a construct that only exists in your mind.

What happens to people as a result of massive brain trauma, neuro surgery, dementia, and other brain altering events? They lose memories, perception changes, feelings change, and cognition changes. Emotions such as love are generated by interaction of chemicals and and electricity in the human mind.

[_Lightworker]

Your definition of heart is a construct that only exists in your mind.

Absolutely right. It is my mind attempting to put into words something that is beyond words and reason.

What happens to people as a result of massive brain trauma, neuro surgery, dementia, and other brain altering events? They lose memories, perception changes, feelings change, and cognition changes. Emotions such as love are generated by interaction of chemicals and and electricity in the human mind.

The human brain is a wondrous mysterious thing. Perception can be altered for sure by various stimulus. I also agree with you entirely that the emotion of love is generated by chemicals and electricity, but those are manifestations of Spirit too.

When I talk about love I am referring more to the virtue of love than just the feeling love generates. To me love is Wisdom. It is the highest form of intellect. The mind can be in harmony with this virtue and when the mind is in harmony with it and a person's behavior is in harmony with it, God realization can occur.

When placed with a decision, the option that contains the most love, for others and for the self, is the correct one. It is the most intelligent one, most reasonable one, most logical one, etc. This is when the mind aligns with the heart like I said. As we make more correct decisions, more knowledge is given. As we make poor decisions and choose darkness (absence of love) over light, knowledge is diminished. "For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath."

[_Bret Ripley]

Is Derrick back?

Mr. Evenson is not doing so well: http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-19620-notes_from_a_newbie_.html

[_subgenius]

personally the whole thing falls apart with "another person"...an atheist seeing something beyond themselves is quite difficult for them to "prove" let alone actually execute.

This is an even tougher challenge for a theist. The atheist is at least dealing with something observable, repeatable, and measurable. The theist deals in fictions.

please, prove
NOT(observable, repeatable, and measurable) = fictions

[_Molok]

The analogy of wise heavenly parents is a good way to look at it I think.

Why? Did you have a deadbeat dad who never showed up or something?

[Guest]

...

[_subgenius]

Here is a wise teaching too: "...the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14-15

I think this just proves Atheism has been around since before Bible times , and has been more enduring than any one concept of god?

not really, because you would have to assume that natural man was "first", yet we are taught spiritually that natural man was "second".
I see no cause nor reason to assume that Atheism has been everlasting.
If anything, given the "observable and measurable" evidence atheism, as a social institution, is unpopular and defective and history shows that it is often treated accordingly. A wise atheist would feign religion just for social survival...you know avoid the eventual burning at the stake...but alas our modern atheist is too arrogant to learn from the observable and measurable past and is surely, somehow, convinced that in spite of their own abhorrence for the practice they consider imposing their views upon others as the "smart" choice.

[_Molok]

A wise atheist would feign religion just for social survival...you know avoid the eventual burning at the stake...

Do you actually believe in such foolishness or are you just trying to get a rise out of people?