How important should the Joseph Smith papyri be?

[_Themis]

I already do that. But would you, back again? I wouldn't, not based on any amount of physical evidence.

You say you did at the same time you say you won't. I have already said I would which should be evident since already have.

Because "God" isn't some human dogmatic definition, insisting that the masses believe in this "one true God".

I have seen all kinds of ideas about what God or Gods are. I don't see anything more then people making up what they like.

Atheists don't need such a being. But we all want an answer to the core question of why existence Is in the first place? Even science would like an answer to that one, since it might show some insight into cause and effect on a cosmic scale, which of course would impact cause and effect on separate planets....

It's one of the big questions people have asked. Many have made up answers for it. Do you have an answer that is not just made up? Religion is good at making things up, so I think the scientific en-devour is far more likely to answer this question if it is possible.

[_Uncle Ed]

...Atheists don't need such a being. But we all want an answer to the core question of why existence Is in the first place? Even science would like an answer to that one, since it might show some insight into cause and effect on a cosmic scale, which of course would impact cause and effect on separate planets....

It's one of the big questions people have asked. Many have made up answers for it. Do you have an answer that is not just made up? Religion is good at making things up, so I think the scientific en-devour is far more likely to answer this question if it is possible.

No answers, but: Since Existence is inarguable it is Caused. That means Cause = "God". We are sapient, which makes Existence Sapient; nothing in the world of humans evolves to transcend the traits of the Cause or Existence. That means all traits we observe are traits of Existence, making sapience (unique to us as far as we know) exist "behind" all things. You can call this "intelligent design" since Existence is intelligent. Nothing happens without "design", or in other words awareness. It all comes back to the inarguable fact of Existence, consciousness of the question in the first place. "God" Is the Necessary Cause. That is not an answer as to why or how existence instead of nothing Is. Since Existence Is Infinite, and we are finite denizens of the world of humans, I don't expect ever to comprehend Existence In Total, so I will never know how or why Existence Is: I must just accept it, since, as I say for the third time, it is inarguable....

[_SteelHead]

The requirement that existence is inarguable and hence must be caused by god is unprovable. But good luck with that assertion.

What is sapience? Why do dolphins not meet the threshold?

[_bcspace]

It seems to me, if the claims of the church are true, the Joseph Smith papyri should be one of the most important religious artifacts discovered in the past 200 years..... Instead they called the church and told them to come pick up their crap. And since the discovery of the papyri, nobody cares, not even the church leaders and scholars at BYU. That alone should be a huge red flag.

Not enough extant papyri to worry about. The Church quickly and truthfully stated what the fragments were and were not long ago. All Book of Abraham criticism is negated because there is not enough information to even speculate rationally.

[_Bazooka]

It seems to me, if the claims of the church are true, the Joseph Smith papyri should be one of the most important religious artifacts discovered in the past 200 years..... Instead they called the church and told them to come pick up their crap. And since the discovery of the papyri, nobody cares, not even the church leaders and scholars at BYU. That alone should be a huge red flag.

Not enough extant papyri to worry about. The Church quickly and truthfully stated what the fragments were and were not long ago. All Book of Abraham criticism is negated because there is not enough information to even speculate rationally.

Well...we have the papyri with facsimile 1 on it, don't we....so we have enough to rationally speculate about it's (f1) translation.

[_Themis]

No answers, but: Since Existence is inarguable it is Caused.

How do you determine this assertion of being caused?

That means Cause = "God".

I am not sure what you mean. If the universe is caused, does that have to mean the cause is some being, or can the cause just be some natural cause with no intelligence or design. I know nature worship is growing these days. Are you one of them?

We are sapient, which makes Existence Sapient; nothing in the world of humans evolves to transcend the traits of the Cause or Existence.

How would you know this assertion is true? Life evolved passed single cell organisms.

That means all traits we observe are traits of Existence, making sapience (unique to us as far as we know) exist "behind" all things. You can call this "intelligent design" since Existence is intelligent. Nothing happens without "design", or in other words awareness. It all comes back to the inarguable fact of Existence, consciousness of the question in the first place. "God" Is the Necessary Cause. That is not an answer as to why or how existence instead of nothing Is. Since Existence Is Infinite, and we are finite denizens of the world of humans, I don't expect ever to comprehend Existence In Total, so I will never know how or why Existence Is: I must just accept it, since, as I say for the third time, it is inarguable....

Just more assertions without substance. The problem is making illogical assumptions from the start. You need to stop reading this ID crap.

[_Themis]

Well...we have the papyri with facsimile 1 on it, don't we....so we have enough to rationally speculate about it's (f1) translation.

Bcspace won't engage the issue. Just makes dumb assertions. We have all 3 facsimiles that Egyptology have translated. It doesn't fit at all with Joseph's claimed translations of them. The Book of Abraham tells us fac 1 is the start of the commencement of the Book of Abraham story. Since we have text with Fac 1 which is the start of that record it is the claimed source of the Book of Abraham text. All the evidence points to this, especially the KEP. We have way more then enough to see Joseph is making it up. The guy really could never resist pulling this crap.

[_Bazooka]

Well...we have the papyri with facsimile 1 on it, don't we....so we have enough to rationally speculate about it's (f1) translation.

Bcspace won't engage the issue. Just makes dumb assertions. We have all 3 facsimiles that Egyptology have translated. It doesn't fit at all with Joseph's claimed translations of them. The Book of Abraham tells us fac 1 is the start of the commencement of the Book of Abraham story. Since we have text with Fac 1 which is the start of that record it is the claimed source of the Book of Abraham text. All the evidence points to this, especially the KEP. We have way more then enough to see Joseph is making it up. The guy really could never resist pulling this crap.

Joseph incorrectly translated everything that we have the original documents for, yet we should believe that he got it right with the documents that we don't now have.

[_Uncle Ed]

The requirement that existence is inarguable and hence must be caused by god is unprovable. But good luck with that assertion.

What is sapience? Why do dolphins not meet the threshold?

Sapience is our definition. "Our kind of thinking" is not mirrored, or even mimicked, in nature, it is unique. As far as we can tell, even the most intelligent dolphin or gorilla has no capacity for imagination, they merely exist joyfully in the moment. The implications of this trait on our part, and deficiency on their part, are enormous....

[_Uncle Ed]

How do you determine this assertion of being caused?

... The problem is making illogical assumptions from the start. You need to stop reading this ID crap.

I don't read ID anything, except anecdotal snippets in passing on the Net.

Macro to micro evolution is a function of Creation, in other words, it is observed as a function or method explaining the perpetuation of life within the world of humans. This world/universe was not always as it Is within spacetime, therefore it is caused at some point. The Cause is the only Existence that is itself uncaused. Existence, being inarguable, depends on that fundamental fact. Existence is not caused. Everything derives from Existence....