Defining Progressivism

[Gadianton]

At what point was it appropriate to stand up to Adolf Hitler vs. trying to guide him by including him? Or am I misunderstanding: was the point to be more like him because that's the sort of thing society was embracing?

I also recall Jordan Peterson near the beginning of the war express concern over Vladimir Putin's isolation. He suggested a men's boating trip that included Putin. I wonder who HoH imagines should be on that boating trip with Peterson and Putin. Maybe Joe Rogan? Lex? If Putin had the appropriate male friendships, is it believed that this could have turned back the war?

[Physics Guy]

I confess I haven't followed this thread. Did it ever define "Progressivism"? We've had a string of posters who have been obsessed with something they all call "progressivism" but I've never understood exactly what it was that had them so riled. Frankly they all sound like cranky old people harping on and on about something unintelligible.

Wikipedia describes Progressivism as a political philosophy going back to Immanuel Kant and John Stuart Mill, on the philosophical side, and Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson as important politicians. Most of what these people advocated just sounds to me like, "Um, the Middle Ages were long enough, how about we stop being stupid now?" Who would object?

Apparently there was also a "Progressive Era" in American politics, from 1890-1920 or so. It was a period of Republican dominance. Is that relevant?

[Chap]

I confess I haven't followed this thread. Did it ever define "Progressivism"?

Nope. I have tried repeatedly to get the thread creator (Hound of Heaven) to define what he means by this word, but he ignores my posts and everyone simply carries on regardless,

It all seems to be a total waste of time.

[Hound of Heaven]

However, socialism does not align with the concept of freedom.

If this were true, why is it that the world's most progressive democratic socialist countries are also at the top of the lists of the countries with the highest freedom score, as well as the happiest countries?

Freest Countries 2025

most progressive countries

Happiest Countries in the World 2025

To engage in a discussion about freedom, we must begin by clarifying what freedom truly means. I believe freedom holds various meanings for different individuals; do you concur?

During my time as a devoted Mormon, I believed I was truly free and that I belonged to a faith that would bring me everlasting happiness. Mormonism is fundamentally centered on the belief that true freedom and happiness are eternal, and that the only path to experiencing this profound freedom and joy is through joining the Mormon religion. Are we in agreement on this?

Having been away from the church for many years, I now recognize that the so-called freedom within its walls is not the kind of freedom I wish to embrace. I cannot envision myself as truly free or happy if I were to rejoin the church. Gunnar, what does freedom truly mean? How is it that some of my closest Mormon relatives perceive themselves as entirely free due to the atonement of Jesus Christ and the laws and ordinances of the gospel, while I view them as being constrained by an ideology that seems designed to bind them for a lifetime?

Gunnar, the nations you mentioned as some of the freest and happiest are also among the world's most heavily taxed. Could you clarify how their happiness is considered free?

Here's another idea, Gunnar. This is not the first instance in which you have referenced the countries in your links as proof of freedom and happiness existing in places outside of America. I find it quite peculiar that you identify as progressive while simultaneously relying solely on predominantly white countries to illustrate the concepts of true freedom and happiness. Is it not true that happiness can be found in countries with a majority of Black, Latino, or Asian populations?

[Kishkumen]

The key questions are free from what and at what cost. You should pose those questions instead of this identity distraction.

[Molok]

True leftism is the insistence that the People own the means of production. Our so-called leftists in mainstream politics are barely left of center. Anyone who gets worked up about our so-called leftists is either being dramatic for rhetorical effect, lying, or pretty far to the right.

Couldn't agree more. In 2025 America, believing anyone who works a full time job should afford food, shelter, transportation and healthcare makes you a leftist.

[Gadianton]

Nope. I have tried repeatedly to get the thread creator (Hound of Heaven) to define what he means by this word,

If you want to see the very definition of the word "progressive", then go buy yourself a full length mirror, stand in front of it, and look!

Wikipedia describes Progressivism as a political philosophy going back to Immanuel Kant and John Stuart Mill,

If you wish to perceive the progressive mind, then submit yourself to an MRI paid for by the woke social benefits of Germany, and ask the technician to transmit its interpretation to you by telepathy!

The key questions are free from what and at what cost. You should pose those questions instead of this identity distraction.

If you want to know what freedom is, then why don't you go on a men's boating trip with Jordan Peterson and Vladimir Putin, and help Vladimir select the best civilian targets in Ukraine to attack next?

[Kishkumen]

Couldn't agree more. In 2025 America, believing anyone who works a full time job should afford food, shelter, transportation and healthcare makes you a leftist.

It boggles the mind.

[Chap]

I take it that what follows is supposed to be in the voice of HoH?

Nope. I have tried repeatedly to get the thread creator (Hound of Heaven) to define what he means by this word,

If you want to see the very definition of the word "progressive", then go buy yourself a full length mirror, stand in front of it, and look!

Wikipedia describes Progressivism as a political philosophy going back to Immanuel Kant and John Stuart Mill,

If you wish to perceive the progressive mind, then submit yourself to an MRI paid for by the woke social benefits of Germany, and ask the technician to transmit its interpretation to you by telepathy!

The key questions are free from what and at what cost. You should pose those questions instead of this identity distraction.

If you want to know what freedom is, then why don't you go on a men's boating trip with Jordan Peterson and Vladimir Putin, and help Vladimir select the best civilian targets in Ukraine to attack next?

[Chap]

If this were true, why is it that the world's most progressive democratic socialist countries are also at the top of the lists of the countries with the highest freedom score, as well as the happiest countries?

Freest Countries 2025

most progressive countries

Happiest Countries in the World 2025

To engage in a discussion about freedom, we must begin by clarifying what freedom truly means. I believe freedom holds various meanings for different individuals; do you concur?
[...]

For the moment, I suggest we first pay attention to how the compilers of the 'freedom index' linked in Gunnar's post reckon up the figures they use for ranking countries. They summarise as follows:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... edom-index

Freedom is one of the most important factors influencing a person’s everyday quality of life. In addition to making it easier to live one’s life, human freedom recognizes individuals’ dignity and is inherently valuable, playing a vital role in human progress. Despite this importance, determining which countries’ citizens have the most freedom can be challenging to do so objectively. Fortunately, individual indices can be used to determine which countries have the highest level of human freedom.

Introducing the Human Freedom Index

The Cato Institute in Washington D.C. and the Fraser Institute in Vancouver, Canada co-published the annual Human Freedom Index Report, which helps observe relationships between freedom and other social and economic phenomena. The Human Freedom Index Report ranks 165 countries/territories, representing 98.8% of the world’s population, across a broad range of indicators (86 distinct indicators in 2023). These values are compiled into in two distinct scores: Personal Freedom and Economic Freedom, which are then combined to form the final Human Freedom score. This score is then compared to that of other nations to determine which countries are the freest in the world.

Types of Freedom

Personal freedom is defined as an individual’s freedom of opinion and expression, equality before the courts, security of private property, and freedom to come and go. For example, the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights in the United States Constitution lists several personal freedoms that are guaranteed to all U.S. citizens.

Economic freedom, also known as economic liberty, consists of personal choice, voluntary exchange, freedom to compete in markets, and protection of person and property. Economic freedom enables people to prosper in a country without intervention from the government or economic authority. Economic freedom can be seen in capitalism or “laissez-faire” economies, where the means of production (manufacturers or suppliers) are privately owned and the government has little to no control over businesses.

More detail here:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

The Human Freedom Index and its Purpose

The Human Freedom Index is an annual report that evaluates the state of human freedom in 165 countries and territories around the world, representing 98.8 percent of the human population as of the 2023 HFI report. The HFI is a broadly comprehensive measure that encompasses both personal and economic freedom and then merges the two into a single value titled simply “human freedom.” The Human Freedom Index is co-published by the Cato Institute, the Fraser Institute, and the Liberales Institut at the Friedrich Naumann Foundation for Freedom. The countries with the highest Human Freedom Index scores are widely considered to be among (the freest countries in the world).

The 2023 Human Freedom Index report is the most comprehensive empirical measure of freedom yet created. It compares and combines 86 different indicators to quantify the degree of freedom in 165 countries and territories up until 2021, the most recent year for which sufficient data are available. Each of the 86 indicators examined fits into one of 12 meta-categories.

The 12 Categories of the Human Freedom Index

Rule of Law
Security and Safety
Movement
Religion
Association, Assembly, and Civil Society
Expression and Information
Relationships
Size of Government
Legal System and Property Rights
Access to Sound Money
Freedom to Trade Internationally
Regulation
The Human Freedom Index gives each country a score from 0 to 10, wherein a score of 10 represents the most freedom and 0 represents no freedom at all, in each of the 86 indicators. These scores are carefully weighted and combined to determine the values for personal freedom and economic freedom; then those two values are averaged to determine each country’s ultimate human freedom index score.

Personal Freedom and Economic Freedom Compared

Personal freedom and economic freedom are made up of two sets of distinct but closely intertwined indicators. Personal freedom involves such indicators as the fairness of the laws, personal safety, freedom of movement and assembly, freedom of religion, freedom to run for political office, freedom of the press, freedom of speech and expression, and freedom to pursue same-sex relationships or obtain a divorce.

In comparison, economic freedom observes such indicators as the size of the government and degree of overbearance it imposes, tax and interest rates, the impartiality of the courts and integrity of the legal system, freedom to participate in financial markets and/or trade internationally, minimum wage, the cost of starting a business, the presence or absence of conscription (obligatory government work), and general freedom to prosper financially without intervention from the government or economic authority.

I must say that I like the fact that 'personal safety' counts towards the score for personal freedom. It would be little comfort to me if the streets were filled with heavily armed people, and I was told "Well, you are free to get your very own personal combined heavy machine gun and rocket launcher and carry it with you when you go out - so your freedom is enhanced, not impaired!'