Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

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_beastie
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _beastie »

I cannot recall that Beastie has ever publicly stated that she is against child pornography. Could someone please direct me to a previous post showing assertions that show that she is anti-child pornography? Without such evidence I will be left to assume that she runs a child pornography ring or at least sympathizes with their cause.

Any links would be appreciated. Thanks.


It's painful to have to so carefully explain what is fairly obvious, but I've gotten used to it.

If someone had accused beastie of not being against child pornography, and, in response, someone replied:

But here's a novel principle for you: If you want to know whether certain characterizations of beastie's view of child pornography are grounded in her actual statements or were invented whole cloth (or something in between), an obvious starting point for your investigation is . . . to read beastie's writings!


....then one would be justified in asking, well, which one of beastie's many articles address this topic?

And if, after being asked that specific question, this same person refused to direct the questioner's attention to the articles that address this topic or demonstrated beastie's view on this topic, and replied:

I've been listening to the man for nearly forty years. I've known him very well, met and/or spoken with him at least once a week, for nearly a quarter of a century. I've stayed with him and his wife in New Zealand, twice, for a couple of weeks each time. I've traveled with them in Australia. I'm in daily e-mail contact with him. I've worked with him on the FARMS Review for at least the past ten years or so.

I don't need to cite his articles in order to know his views.

If you think I don't understand his views, it's up to you to show that I don't. I suggest reading his articles. If you can't find any ammunition there, you might try going to London. You'll find him and his wife among the theatres of the West End.


one would be justified in suspecting that there really are no articles that demonstrate beastie's opposition to child pornography, and that the poster was bluffing and posturing all along.

One would be even more justified in this suspicion if the person made a big deal about the questioner not reading texts.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_beastie
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _beastie »

I've been listening to the man for nearly forty years. I've known him very well, met and/or spoken with him at least once a week, for nearly a quarter of a century. I've stayed with him and his wife in New Zealand, twice, for a couple of weeks each time. I've traveled with them in Australia. I'm in daily e-mail contact with him. I've worked with him on the FARMS Review for at least the past ten years or so.

I don't need to cite his articles in order to know his views.

If you think I don't understand his views, it's up to you to show that I don't. I suggest reading his articles. If you can't find any ammunition there, you might try going to London. You'll find him and his wife among the theatres of the West End.


Now that's odd. You're the one who asserting that I could discover whether or not the given summary was consistent with Midgley's views by reading his publications. I've read four of his publications so far, and haven't found anything that supports your claim. In fact, the citation I provided above seems to support the idea that it would be consistent with Midgley's view to regard the "new Mormon history", with its "so-called intellectuals", to "not be at home with the restored gospel", and to threaten that gospel by dislodging its foundational stories. You know, like what the secularists did to Judaism in some circles.

Here's the thing. Midgley has 35 articles on FARMS. The vast majority of those articles are reviews of books. There is nothing to indicate in those review titles that he would mention, for example, that he views the teaching X, Y, and Z of Joseph Smith as a cultural product - or that he's ok with others doing so. The other, non-review articles, do not appear to indicate that such information would be contained therein, either. I've read two of his articles about the RLDS changing their view to include the Book of Mormon as "inspired fiction", and clearly he views that as a tragic error and wants the LDS church to avoid going down that road. Is that consistent with Clayton's summary of his views? Yes. I read Midgley's review of One Nation Under Gods, not because I thought it might contain this information, but because I remembered the author participating at Z, and as entertaining as it was to read about Abanes being so good looking and an actor, I found nothing to support your assertion. So next I read the article I cited from above, and that does appear to support Clayton's summary, not yours, although we could certain quibble about the import of certain phrases.

You're the one who said this question could be resolved by reading his publications. Did you make that assertion for no reason? Is your assertion really that this question could be resolved by asking someone who's known Midgley for years, like you?

Again, out of Midgley's 35 articles, which I'm certain you read, which one contains information that would allow us to see that Midgley is ok with people attributing some of Joseph Smith' teachings to cultural influence rather than revelation? I'm giving you one more chance to answer this question before assuming that there really is no article of Midgley's that demonstrates this point, and you were bluffing and posturing.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_Gadianton
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _Gadianton »

Ray,

I agree with a lot of what you say. But I do want to emphasize the point that not all who do retain belief view themselves as fierce skeptics. Doesn't something just not ring true to you if someone who believes in angels, exalted men ruling from Kolob, and the like say to you, "Oh no, I'm anything but gullible, all these so-called absud beliefs I espouse, be assured, I've put through the acid test time and time again and even against my own grave doubts and predictions, they have surprisingly come out triumphant."

I believe both you and Quinn have cast a lot of doubt on your beliefs, I think you've both gone through some tremendous trials of belief. It's evident in your writings. I also don't recall you and Quinn boasting about how skeptical you are, and how commited you are to putting your most cherished thoughts under severe scrutiny. You know, Descartes got a lot of flack for, among other things, his so-called "radical doubting" where he imagines that he can dig deep within his own psyche, spot his rock bottom assumptions, and then tear them apart.

I think there is some overcompensation here because of the nature of the discussion. Holding beliefs in some of these outlandish things that skeptics often make fun of, that skeptics, many of which who aren't very careful in their own thinking and are merely plucking the low-hanging fruit, I think tempts one in the direction of wishing to be more skeptical than the skeptics and feel the power of saying, "Oh yeah? We'll I'm smarter and more skeptical than you are, and I believe it's all true, so there!"

I'm just saying, Ray, that in all that I've listened to of Chuck Smith, and in the moderate amount I've read from Novak and Midgley, I don't think any of them have had any, serious, grave doubts about their religion and I certainly don't believe they take great pleasure in doubting their most fundamental assumptions about life. I honestly can't imagine anyone does, namely them, or anyone who has so little charity for others who do and have come up with opposing conclusions, conclusions they barely escaped from themselves.

Just doesn't ring true at all.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_harmony
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _harmony »

Ray A wrote:I don't know if this adds any perspective, but here are Lou Midgley's comments on the FAIR blog:

And the idea that I cannot possibly imagine the mind-set of those who entertain doubts or who have rejected their faith is also rubbish. From the very moment I started university, and right on through my academic career, I sought out the most radically competing ideologies to see what I could learn from them and also exactly how my faith could stand up to them.


Where did Dr. Midgley get his undergraduate degree and his advanced degrees? I can't seem to locate his CV on BYU's site. It would be interesting to see where he sought these radical competing ideologies...

FAIR blog wrote:I have always had a host of doubts swirling around inside of me. Why? I fear being the dupe and I resent being manipulated. In this struggle, if one’s opinions happen to survive, they will obviously be modified and refined.


So his opinion has been modified and refined? What were they before their modification and refinement?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_beastie
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _beastie »

Obviously, one of Midgley’s areas of interest is insisting on the necessity of the literal historicity of the Book of Mormon. So far, it is in these articles that one can glean statements that appear to be coherent with the attitude Clayton described. This article is a review of "The Word of God Is Enough: The Book of Mormon as Nineteenth-Century Scripture" by Hutchinson, titled The Current Battle Over the Book of Mormon

While these statements are expressly about the Book of Mormon and whether or not LDS should consider it “inspired fiction” instead of a literal ancient account, he does make statements therein that provide clues as far as his attitude towards those who proffer “naturalistic” explanations for Joseph Smith’ teachings or revelations. (naturalistic could well include “product of culture”) He sees the “inspired fiction” route as a serious threat to the truth claims of the LDS church. This seems consistent with the idea that he would also view naturalistic explanations for Joseph Smith’ teachings as a serious threat, as well, although is not conclusive evidence. But so far, it’s the best I can find. I have repeatedly invited DCP to inform us which of Midgley’s articles best demonstrate Midgley’s acceptance of presenting some of Joseph Smith’teachings as cultural products, but he has, so far, declined. So here are the quotes I found relevant, with the most pertinent statements bolded.

Professor McMurrin resents the fact that "the Encyclopedia editors and authors assumed that their readers had no questions about" what he denigrates as "the literalistic orthodox interpretation of the Book of Mormon and the Bible. The authenticity of the Book of Mormon is taken for granted."16 McMurrin finds evidence in the Encyclopedia that Latter-day Saint scholars take seriously the possibility of "personal revelation which is now so prominent in the church."17 The belief in revelation is, for him, "a belief that already accounts for much of the lunatic fringe in the church and could very well expand into an irrationalism quite uncharacteristic of Mormonism, which could produce a kind of intellectual anarchy in the church."18 McMurrin seems unable to spit or swallow when it comes to the Restored Gospel; he rejects its grounds and much of its content, but simply cannot leave it alone. He has a fondness for elements of Mormon culture, but he objects to signs of genuine faith among the Saints. In this regard, he is the archetypal cultural Mormon.



That is not to say that a few secularized Latter-day Saints have not followed Brodie or McMurrin, but, until recently, they couched their accounts in ambiguous language by describing, for example, how Joseph Smith's opinions prior to 1830 on certain matters might be seen in language in the Book of Mormon,28 or how Joseph Smith could be sincere in telling stories about visits with angels because he lived before Sigmund Freud had explained how the mind works.29 Some have tried to make a distinction between what they label "sacred history," which they understand to be a myth grounding the community of believers, and real history, which involves real people, places and events. They then brush aside questions of whether what they consider the "Mormon myth" really happened.30 The implication of such arguments, when applied as explanations and not as excuses for avoiding facing up to difficult questions, is that Joseph Smith invented the Book of Mormon. Cautious cultural Mormon historians have avoided drawing undue attention to themselves. But we are now faced with a spate of forthright denials that the Book of Mormon is an authentic ancient text in the pages of Dialogue31 and Sunstone.32
These writers may, if it suits their fancy, retain some ties to the Church, but henceforth they insist that they will determine the content of Latter-day Saint faith. For example, one writer poignantly describes his "anti-conversion"—he insists that the Book of Mormon and book of Abraham are fiction and not fact. He concedes that "many questions remain" and that he has some questions that even he "can't answer." For instance, if "Joseph Smith is the author of the Book of Mormon, is he then a fraud, or is the Book of Mormon the result of revelatory experience?"33 He adds a comforting note: "At present, I have no compelling answer and am willing to entertain either possibility. Either way," he acknowledges, "there are serious implications for my faith."34 It seems odd to me for someone talking about the ground and content of faith in God to be entertaining possibilities that range from fraud to perhaps some weak notion of a "revelatory experience." So much for testimony!



But such endeavors have a history. It turns out that Hutchinson is imitating or even borrowing from an army of secularized scholars engaged in fashioning naturalistic readings of the Bible. From this history we can begin to see what the consequences are for the academic study of sacred texts and also for the life of the faith and the faithful.



And yet the publication of New Approaches is an important event. It marks the most sophisticated attack on the truth of the Book of Mormon currently available either from standard sectarian or more secularized anti-Mormon sources, or from the fringes of Mormon culture and intellectual life. But attention to certain strands of thought being advanced by some of those who advertise themselves, especially to the press, as "Mormon intellectuals," should have alerted Latter-day Saints that cultural Mormons were gearing up for a frontal attack on Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. For more than a decade I have been warning of the direction being taken by a few—and I stress once again a few—Mormon historians bent on explaining Joseph Smith's prophetic charisms and the Book of Mormon in essentially secular, naturalistic terms.39 Most recently efforts to turn the Book of Mormon into fiction have been financed, promoted, and published by George D. Smith.40 And, for a cautionary tale, one ought to give attention to the subtle shift away from commitment to the Book of Mormon, including what appears to be the officially approved treatment of that text as "inspired" or inspiring fiction, which is one of the more crucial elements in the radical transformation of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.41


The theologians (who are not biblical scholars) who have fashioned various notions of "myth" have, for Hutchinson, suggested a model for understanding the Book of Mormon as fiction, and also for what constitutes inspiration, divine special revelation, and so forth. In so doing, he has fashioned a radically different mode of understanding crucial prophetic truth claims. But, unfortunately for Hutchinson, those from whom he draws his scholarly inspiration do not necessarily hold that Jesus was in fact raised from the dead. Quite the contrary is the case. Paul Tillich, the late well-known German-American theologian, provides a fine example of one anxious to deliteralize the entire Christian message in such a radical way that even the necessity of there having been a Jesus disappears.


Interpretative Fashions and the Book of Mormon—Some Cautions

I have argued elsewhere that for Latter-day Saints it has been what Professor Martin E. Marty and I have labelled "the acids of modernity"—ideologies grounded in an uncritically accepted and hence dogmatic rationalism growing out of the enlightenment—that have led to the dogmatic rejection of the prophetic truth claims of the Restored Gospel.91 The Saints have texts that seem to provide eyewitness accounts of encounters with plates and angels and the resurrected Jesus. And they also have a complicated text that claims to be an authentic ancient history. How then does one come to know that angels do not bring books? Exactly how did Bultmann know that dead bodies have not and cannot ever come back to life? Well, for Bultmann, it was the "scientific world view"—the currently fashionable ideology that stands behind the skeptical, secularized intellectual's understanding of the limits of human understanding—that required that he explain such claims in naturalistic terms. From his perspective, only primitives, that is, those who are still in thrall to a prescientific understanding of the world, can really believe that those accounts describe a historical reality.
For those Karl Jaspers labelled the "educated among the scornful," to accept what is found in the New Testament, the crucial historical and prophetic claims found in that text must be deliteralized by being seen as a mythology filled with symbols and not genuine events in a real history. Then the contents of texts like the New Testament and Book of Mormon can be manipulated by learned and cynical theologians or exegetes; they can eventually be demythologized, thereby allowing their presumably deeper messages to be rendered in the vernacular of some fashionable ideology or popular philosophy. This may be what Hutchinson has in mind when he opines that "understanding the Book of Mormon as a fictional work of nineteenth-century scripture has real advantages. The book opens up for interpretation when read this way. The stories take on an added dimension far beyond, I find, any that was lost when I stopped believing in historical Nephites" (p. 17).92
Immediate after World War II, Bultmann wanted to popularize a demythologized understanding of the message of the New Testament. He did this in a language borrowed more or less from what he could make out of a school of philosophy sometimes known as existentialism. Of course, his efforts were mostly merely amusing to philosophers and his endeavors are no longer fashionable even in divinity schools. That is just the way it is with academic fads and fashions. Other ideologies have supplanted existentialism. Hence we are now more likely to hear of feminist or postmodernist readings of the Book of Mormon, or of deconstructing that text, rather than appeals to a now virtually forgotten existentialism. But to get to this point, something like Hutchinson's flawed project must be adopted. That is, the Book of Mormon will have to be read as fiction, either "inspired" or, more likely, merely marginally inspiring to the exegete armed with some new mode of interpreting texts. The Saints should avoid such trendy sophistry. We do not build or defend the Kingdom or make ourselves genuine disciples of Jesus Christ by attempting to appear sophisticated or by mouthing slogans borrowed from an essentially foreign culture. We may better serve the Kingdom by maintaining a safe distance from such worldly ideologies.
The Saints need to develop an exegetical tradition where close attention is given to the Book of Mormon, And they also need more—not less—serious and genuinely competent scholarship. But such is not to be achieved cheaply. And it is not to be acquired by thoughtlessly capitulating to slogan-thinking or to some of the latest fads and fashions in the academic world. Instead of something thrust upon us by modern Nehorism or by more obvious unbelievers,93 we must sustain our own authentic reading of the Book of Mormon. One possible way of resisting revisionist accounts of the Book of Mormon is by recognizing wily Nehoristic efforts to harmonize key elements of the Restored Gospel with secular or sectarian opinion and religiosity.
Biblical studies, of course, offer a wealth of insight and information,94 but we need to be cautious about the theological and interpretive assumptions that stand behind some of these studies. And, from the perspective of serious scholarship, Brent Metcalfe is neither properly motivated nor equipped to guide the Saints to some new light on the Book of Mormon. As we have seen, his agenda appears to be similar to that found among the more blatant anti-Mormons. He differs from them in that he is sufficiently savvy to at least mask his intentions. And hence he makes concessions to Tony Hutchinson and others who, despite their revisionist ideologies, still seem to have a streak of piety. Be that as it may, we can be confident that God did not "inspire" Joseph Smith to fabricate fiction.

Midgley provided a footnote for this: For more than a decade I have been warning of the direction being taken by a few—and I stress once again a few—Mormon historians bent on explaining Joseph Smith's prophetic charisms and the Book of Mormon in essentially secular, naturalistic terms.”

The footnote is as follows:

39. See Louis Midgley, "The Acids of Modernity and the Crisis in Mormon Historiography," in Faithful History, 189-225; and also Midgley, "Prophetic Messages or Dogmatic Theology? Commenting on the Book of Mormon," Review of Books on the Book of Mormon 1 (1989): 101-2, 109-13; Midgley, "The Challenge of Historical Consciousness: Mormon History and the Encounter with Secular Modernity," in By Study and Also By Faith, 2:502-51; Midgley, "Faith and History," in "To Be Learned Is Good, If . . . ," Robert L. Millet, ed. (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1987), 219-26.


These would probably be the most fruitful avenues in attempting to reveal Midgley’s further thoughts on the matter. I’m pretty satisfied, at this point, that Clayton’s summary is, at least, one possible coherent explanation for Midgley’s views, although there may be other possible explanations. So I do not believe Clayton invented the summary out of thin air, but instead, out of one legitimate interpretation of Midgley’s own comments. Whether or not the summary reflects exactly Midgley’s thoughts, or is a simplification, is another matter. I suspect even Midgley would accept that Joseph Smith’ teaching of the existence of men on the moon was not revelatory, and was instead, the product of his environment. But I also suspect he would only accept that sentence for teachings of Joseph Smith that no sane person could even imagine were inspired. In other words, it’s a position I suspect he only takes when absolutely forced to do so, and would prefer never have to take that stance.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_Chap
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _Chap »

Daniel Peterson wrote: I suggest reading [Midgley's] articles. If you can't find any ammunition there, you might try going to London. You'll find him and his wife among the theatres of the West End.


And the bolded sentence is interesting and relevant how?

Suggestion: because it is revealing of the cultural assumptions made by the writer about his target readership - i.e. that they will be impressed by the fact that Midgely is currently in a European capital city, an environment where there are theatres, plural.

Wow.
_beastie
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _beastie »

Suggestion: because it is revealing of the cultural assumptions made by the writer about his target readership - i.e. that they will be impressed by the fact that Midgely is currently in a European capital city, an environment where there are theatres, plural.


I've been around DCP long enough to notice that he frequently peppers his comments with references that are meant to imply a sort of cultural/academic elitism. I usually just ignore them, as I would politely avert my eyes from some other self-preening trait in real life, like wearing lots of "bling". But it is interesting to point them out, now and then, and speculate about why he so often feels compelled to add such asides. It may have to do with the frequent tendency of believers to fawn over degreed apologists, and to use those degrees, in and of themselves, as some sort of buttress for the apologetic argument currently being discussed...even if the degrees have nothing to do with the topic, anyway. I may be wrong about that connection, but it seems possible. It does seem that apologists and their fans try their hardest to convince themselves that critics are largely uneducated and uncouth. It is an ironic trend, given the LDS church's historic antipathy to the "learning of men" in regards to questions of religion.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

harmony wrote:Where did Dr. Midgley get his undergraduate degree and his advanced degrees?

The University of Utah, followed by Harvard University and Brown University.

harmony wrote:I can't seem to locate his CV on BYU's site.

He's retired.

harmony wrote:It would be interesting to see where he sought these radical competing ideologies...

Providence, Rhode Island, and Cambridge, Massachusetts, feature people and ideologies almost as antithetical to Mormonism as those of the University of Utah.

Chap wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote: I suggest reading [Midgley's] articles. If you can't find any ammunition there, you might try going to London. You'll find him and his wife among the theatres of the West End.

And the bolded sentence is interesting and relevant how?

If you don't find it interesting, skip it.

I wanted to make the point that Professor Midgley is unavailable for comment or interrogation right now. I should not have mentioned where he is. I should have realized that it would offend beastie and perhaps one or two others. I didn't realize that posts here were required to be purely schematic and without human interest. I should, rather, have stated merely that "Professor Midgley's GPS coördinates do not currently facilitate interaction."

Chap wrote:Suggestion: because it is revealing of the cultural assumptions made by the writer about his target readership - i.e. that they will be impressed by the fact that Midgely is currently in a European capital city, an environment where there are theatres, plural.

Wow.

My sentiments, exactly.

Wow.

Weird.

But then, I've always found amateur psychoanalysis and pop psychology risible, and (alas!) have never really been convinced of the existence of clairvoyant mind-reading.
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _The Nehor »

beastie wrote:
I cannot recall that Beastie has ever publicly stated that she is against child pornography. Could someone please direct me to a previous post showing assertions that show that she is anti-child pornography? Without such evidence I will be left to assume that she runs a child pornography ring or at least sympathizes with their cause.

Any links would be appreciated. Thanks.


It's painful to have to so carefully explain what is fairly obvious, but I've gotten used to it.

If someone had accused beastie of not being against child pornography, and, in response, someone replied:

But here's a novel principle for you: If you want to know whether certain characterizations of beastie's view of child pornography are grounded in her actual statements or were invented whole cloth (or something in between), an obvious starting point for your investigation is . . . to read beastie's writings!


....then one would be justified in asking, well, which one of beastie's many articles address this topic?

And if, after being asked that specific question, this same person refused to direct the questioner's attention to the articles that address this topic or demonstrated beastie's view on this topic, and replied:

I've been listening to the man for nearly forty years. I've known him very well, met and/or spoken with him at least once a week, for nearly a quarter of a century. I've stayed with him and his wife in New Zealand, twice, for a couple of weeks each time. I've traveled with them in Australia. I'm in daily e-mail contact with him. I've worked with him on the FARMS Review for at least the past ten years or so.

I don't need to cite his articles in order to know his views.

If you think I don't understand his views, it's up to you to show that I don't. I suggest reading his articles. If you can't find any ammunition there, you might try going to London. You'll find him and his wife among the theatres of the West End.


one would be justified in suspecting that there really are no articles that demonstrate beastie's opposition to child pornography, and that the poster was bluffing and posturing all along.

One would be even more justified in this suspicion if the person made a big deal about the questioner not reading texts.


I actually think it would be best to assume that unless the accuser could cite something to show that Beastie is pro-Child pornography from her own writings and sayings that you should assume the accuser (like Scratch in this thread) has no idea what they are talking about. I think the burden of proof lies on Scratch's side in this case and if I were serious about my accusation against you it is up to me to show evidence and not demand that someone else prove me wrong.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
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Re: Part 1: The L-Skinny is Far, Far Greater....

Post by _beastie »

I actually think it would be best to assume that unless the accuser could cite something to show that Beastie is pro-Child pornography from her own writings and sayings that you should assume the accuser (like Scratch in this thread) has no idea what they are talking about. I think the burden of proof lies on Scratch's side in this case and if I were serious about my accusation against you it is up to me to show evidence and not demand that someone else prove me wrong.


Can we use a less repulsive example? Or how about just using the real life example?

And do you folks ever tire of retreating to the "burden of proof" and "you can't prove a negative" refuges?

DCP is the one who asserted that one could ascertain Midgley's views on this issue by reading his writings. It is not unreasonable to ask which writings best demonstrate this issue. You can try to shift the burden to me all you want, but that is what he asserted, and I'm just trying to follow up on it. You and DCP have done your best to divert attention from what is now pretty obvious to me - there are very likely no writings of Midgley that demonstrate he's comfortable explaining the teachings of Joseph Smith as "cultural products". The citations I already shared demonstrate a general discomfort with such "modernism" in regards to the Book of Mormon, and several statements, like this one, clearly are meant to apply to Joseph Smith' other teachings:

For more than a decade I have been warning of the direction being taken by a few—and I stress once again a few—Mormon historians bent on explaining Joseph Smith's prophetic charisms and the Book of Mormon in essentially secular, naturalistic terms.


At this point, I'm satisfied that Clayton's summary was a reasonable interpretation of Midgley's remarks. If you, or DCP, want to prove otherwise, the burden is on you.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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