Joseph Smith Megathread

[_Inconceivable]

CFR

Unless you wish to give up your anonimity, you are an empty suit with as many credentials.

As are you.

So no CFR, I get it.

poser.

[Guest]

[ I do not. I also do not pretend to know exactly why the Lord commanded Joseph Smith to engage in polygamy. He has his reasons..

Funny, that is exactly what the Lafferty brothers said. Not sure why God commanded us to slit the throat of a mom and 18 month old daughter. God has his reasons.

[_huckelberry]

Option 2 does not follow:


•Joseph Smith was repeatedly shown to be highly intelligent.
•If there was a mental disability, somewhere, somehow it would have been written about or documented. No such writings exist.
•Even his most hated former associates never claimed he acted strangely or like that of a mental patient.

Huckelberry notes, I did not make any claim or suggestion that Joseph Smith lacked intelligence. I see no reason to think he had a mental disablity or suffered from delusions or confusion which would land him him in a mental hospitol. I do not see why these observations about him would have any relationship to what I said.

I have no claim to know for sure what was going on in Joseph Smiths mind. I can see possiblities of other things than the three that you listed. In fact I think the choice of three narrow and limited possibities is simply a way of avoiding considering others. Perhaps Joseph strongly belived he understood religion better than others but in a less literal way than he presented it. He may have used peoples literal beliefs to lead them on and was carried along in the process himself. I am suprised at how easily believers think he would have just jumped out of the whole thing when he ran into conflict. Why? He was under a lot of expectation from followers and family. He could not let them down. He reasonably could hope to win through the difficulties to a better day. He genuinely saw himself as a leader of people who needed him. This is a situation in which ego may distort an individuals judgement without major mental illness.

[_just me]

6 February 1844-...I prophesied at the table that 5 years would not roll round before the company would all be able to live without cooking.

Failed prophesy.

Yup. Do you understand the nature of prophecy?

Yeah. It means I do not have to fear him (Joseph Smith) or listen to a word he said.

A couple interesting things here. There is a SET COST to enter the temple. This is not right according to how things are taught today.

You are correct. There are also automobiles today, big difference from the 1830s.

Wow. Great comment. So, what is the current admission price of the temple today?
Do you see nothing wrong with paying for ordinances? I was taught (in the LDS church) that it was/is wrong to charge for ordinances.

The next thing-it is said that "strangers" will be allowed in the temple. In fact, there is another writing that says people of ALL nations, kindreds, tounues and people will be able to enter the temple when it is opened. Joseph died and this changed. No strangers, no blacks...

Really? The last time I was at the Temple, one of the temple workers was African American, as well, a few people in the congregation were.

Again, wow. We are discussing Joseph Smith and the Nauvoo Temple. Before the opening of the temple there was a paper that said it would be open to ALL people. (I believe they have it on blacklds.org) Here we see that even non-members were going to be welcome-as long as they paid admission.

But yes, it is different today. Strangers (a.k.a. non-members) are NOT allowed and AA's are allowed (finally). Last I checked there was no admission price at the door.

I will look for the reference to the "money box" being made for the font later. Right now I need to get back to my family.

I look forward to this reference.

Still looking. Do you have the History of the Church? It is in those-somewhere in the Nauvoo years....


Simon, you say that Joseph made mistakes. Could you please let us know what some of those were?

[_Joseph]

simone blowhard has a part in the old Clint Eastwood Dirty Harry movies, right? I remember you as a main character along with Clint.

"A legend in his own mind".

[_just me]

Other money issues:

*Joseph called his dad as patriarch and then the patriarchs charged for recorded blessings

*Joseph charged money for people to view the mummy and Egyptian papyrus-I believe his mom sometimes showed them

*Hyrum and Joseph both filed for bankruptcy. Hyrum's went through and Joseph's was denied.

*There was that whole banking fiasco that has already been mentioned.

*Joseph Smith tried to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon

*Joseph taught that the SALVATION of the church depended upon the building of the Nauvoo House and Nauvoo Temple. I find that very bothersome. Even more so since Brigham wrote in his journal that the temple was never completed.
The Nauvoo House was a hotel. Why would the salvation of the church depend on the building of a hotel? The saints were told over and over again that the salvation of the church depended on its completion. They abandoned it before it was completed.
I'm guessing that members of Joseph's family would have run the Nauvoo House and profited from it.

[_Simon Belmont]

No. Here is a definition from Wiki

"Pious fraud a term used to describe fraud in religion; for example, a pious fraud can be the act of counterfeiting a miracle or result in a sacred text falsely attributed to a biblical figure) because of a belief that the end justifies the means, in this case the end of increasing faith by whatever means available."

What would be, in your opinion, the end which justified Joseph Smith's means?

First I do think you have read a lot of material, but I can see that it was most likely church sanctioned which is why you showing a lack of accurate information about Joseph Smith history.

Remember pious frauds believe in what they are doing,

Right, this is option 2. Really, truly believing, but being wrong.

Also, Joseph was not really aware of what conflicts may arise when he started his religion, and many of them had little to do with LDS belief or doctrines.

Even if you are correct, human nature dictates that in order to preserve his life, he will resort to anything, especially telling his captors what he believes they want to hear, If other methods have not worked. It is basic fight or flight.

Even people who know they are major frauds have endured pain and risk of life in order to try and gain from their endeavors, so pious frauds would be even more willing to.

Not to the extend Joseph Smith did.

You might want to study human nature a lot more. If Joseph is a pious fraud(I think he was)His colleagues would would at most also be pious frauds or true believers unaware of what things Joseph had made up.

So now we have a group of pious frauds? The story that critics have to concoct gets curiouser and curiouser. And if they were unaware, then there would not be witnesses.

LOL if we assume this is true, that means half of them never get discovered. Unfortunately many of Joseph's lies and frauds have been discovered.

Actual frauds do not flourish into world-wide religions. For example: Heaven's Gate, Branch Davidians, etc.

LOL you obviously are reading only church friendly material, or you would understand better Martins is not the best eye witness to have on your side, not to mention just how our understanding has grown of the limitations of the eye witness testimony. I say more, but I'm not sure where to begin with your amount of ignorance on the subject. I know beastie put up some good articles on it.

I stand by Martin Harris. He was a good, but confused, man. I have read church materials as well as critical materials (works by the Tanners, Fawn Brodie, etc.)

Moral is a subjective term. It's good top see you do believe he did have sex with some of his wives. Now having sex is not the real issue though. It's about Joseph behavior and claims in regards to polygamy that people find hard to believe would be God sanctioned.

Okay, but surely you can admit that there a lot of things people find hard to be God-sanctioned (much of the Old Testament, for example).

I don't know anyone who think Joseph needed to be perfect, but their actions and behavior do have a bearing on whether their claims are likely to be true or not, and many of his actions have been much worse then most other people would behave, so trust and credibility should suffer.

Perhaps, but it is too easy to forget all of the good things about Joseph. Having read "The Joseph Smith Papers," it is amazing the love he had for his friends and neighbors.

God never asks for faith. Only those who want you to believe they represent him.

I disagree. I think he has asked for faith numerous times in the Bible especially.

[_Simon Belmont]

Wrong? How? You certainly appear to not know enough to prove anything I said wrong. I am right and you know it. That is why all you could do is repeat yourself over and over.

Are you actually going to support your arguments, or just spew hate-vomit from your mouth?

[_Simon Belmont]

. I am an expert on the subject.

You are a self-proclaimed expert. Big deal.

And you are a self-proclaimed Mormon, big deal.

[_Simon Belmont]

Much better, I say, to exercise some candor and respect. Joseph Smith married lots of women, he had intimate relations with some of them. He believed God told him to do it. If you believe Joseph was a prophet, then there is your explanation. If you don't, then you probably won't buy it.

This is sane and succinct. I agree. Thank you.