Tobin wrote: Only Mormon critics, who are idiots, try to make the assertion that Joseph Smith knew the Egyptian alphabet or grammar.
Well, there is at least one idiot here, anyhow. Seriously, where do you get this crap? I'll admit, though, it certainly is entertaining watching you attempt to figure out what you're supposed to be arguing against.
Wow, what the hell is going on here. I have dealt with TBM's that just don't look into this stuff, and won't look into this stuff, because they are obedient and after all that is the first law of Heaven. If you actually do breach the instruction and disobey the Brotheren and peek on the world wide web and see this sort of stuff and still try to explain it away, you are as Forest Gump described himself, "... not a smart man." Someone on here said something to the effect that if God is Truth, which is a common christian agreement, why would he either deceive his prophet, or let his prophet abide in deception. That has to be the finale of this argument. There is so much deception on how the Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, and as far as I am concerned the D & C, came to be that how could they be inspired, truthful, moral, valuable documents. The more I think about it, what good comes from any of them other than covenant making, and aligning with a group that is somehow flourishing in a self insuring top fifty corps in the World.
Fence Sitter wrote:Another problem is we know that Joseph Smith did some translating of the later portions of the Book of Abraham and facsimiles in 1842 in Nauvoo.
March 8, 1842 -- "Recommenced translating from the Records of Abraham for the tenth number of the Times and Seasons, and was engaged at my office day and evening."
March 9, 1842 -- "... in the afternoon continued the translation of the Book of Abraham ..."
March 9, 1842 (in a letter to Edward Hunter) -- "I am now very busily engaged in translating, and therefore cannot give as much time to public matters as I could wish..."
Fence Sitter wrote:Another problem is we know that Joseph Smith did some translating of the later portions of the Book of Abraham and facsimiles in 1842 in Nauvoo.
March 8, 1842 -- "Recommenced translating from the Records of Abraham for the tenth number of the Times and Seasons, and was engaged at my office day and evening."
March 9, 1842 -- "... in the afternoon continued the translation of the Book of Abraham ..."
March 9, 1842 (in a letter to Edward Hunter) -- "I am now very busily engaged in translating, and therefore cannot give as much time to public matters as I could wish..."
Bret - Again, this doesn't help you. It is known that Joseph Smith translated the majority of the text in July of 1835 with additional revisions in November and a some touch ups in 1842 (over extremely short periods of time). That doesn't trouble me in the slightest and doesn't help you either. He worked on the alphabet and grammar after doing nearly all of the translation (using the Book of Abraham as the basis for it)!!! Think about that for a moment. To TRANSLATE traditionally, you need the alphabet, grammar, and a vocabulary to EVEN start. Here Joseph Smith translates FIRST, then attempts to create the alphabet, grammar and vocabulary afterwards. But expecting a Mormon critic to think about the material they quote may be asking for too much.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Having a conversation with Tobin regarding the making of the Book of Abraham is pointless. He's brain is totally in the gutter. Don't offer him a helping hand -- let the idiot drown.
Shulem wrote:Having a conversation with Tobin regarding the making of the Book of Abraham is pointless. He's brain is totally in the gutter. Don't offer him a helping hand -- let the idiot drown.
Kittens_and_Jesus wrote:You really think Moses wrote down the Old Torah? Not even the Jews believe that. I think it is you that has a poor understanding.
Kittens_and_Jesus wrote:You really believe in the Torah as a historical record? 6000 year old earth? A two person gene pool? All those animals fitting into a tiny arc? No plants or fungus in the arc? Etc, etc... Come on... The first part of Genesis is nothing more than a rip off of an older Sumerian legend. The Tower of Babel story is an ancient Jewish misrepresentation of a ziggurat. I can go on if you like...
I wasn't the one making absurd statements that Jews didn't believe that Moses wrote the Torah. But like all Mormon critics, you can't admit when you were wrong (as is most often the case). And yes, I'm sure you can spew a lot of non-factual assertions like the prior one.
The Jewish Study Bible The Documentary Hypothesis is discussed extensively in this study Bible. As I recall, it was accepted as given in the commentary for the Torah.
Kittens and Jesus is maybe too inclusive, but not exactly wrong. Unfortunately for Mormons, there isn't really a way to be knowledgeable on this and share comparable common ground with one's fellow believers. I can't imagine a Mormon source putting out a study manual on the Old Testament that included the Documentary Hypothesis without trying to disprove it.
ETA: I confirmed that if you look inside the book sample, the opening commentary on the Torah explains a little about the origin of the myth that Moses wrote the entire Torah, and then provides a pretty good overview of the Documentary Hypothesis.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
madeleine wrote:Moses received the Law from God. It wasn't a new and innovative Law, it is the natural law, the one that is engraved on the hearts of all. When Moses returned from the mountain, he looked like he had experienced something unusual, he had changed physically (grey hair). He didn't produce hundreds of pages of scripture which contained innovative teachings that no one had ever heard of, and with no verification that a supernatural event occurred.
I think you have a poor understanding of who Moses was and what he did. Clearly you don't understand the many writings of Moses make up the first books of the Bible and are the basis of Judaism. He was as much a prophet as Joseph Smith was in this era.
I understand who Moses was. My point is, you don't understand who Jesus Christ is. He is the Prophet, High Priest and King. God's perfect Word revealed. I have yet to figure out what Mormons think he left out, or why Mormons believe the Word of God was not perfectly revealed. I can only think it comes from a tendency towards liking novelties.
As for who wrote the Pentateuch, modern text analysis doesn't support the tradition that Moses literally wrote it. While I understand this can present problems for LDS and Evangelicals, it doesn't for Catholics and mainline Protestants.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI