Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

[Res Ipsa]

Dr. Moore,

Very nice analysis of the new CAB material. I'm persuaded that the November 11 Sky West incident was the genesis of Nelson's story.

I'm not sure how to track down the FAA letter on Sky West. It was entered in the docket, but the Reports don't appear to include all the docketed evidence. It looks like there are published indexes to the reports, so it's possible that one could find all the entries published in the Reports volumes for a given docket number. You can find the docket number on the first page of the linked decision.

I'll check Westlaw next time I'm logged in to see if it includes CAB administrative proceedings. Another possibility would be a FOIA request to the appropriate custodian of both FAA and CAB records (likely archived).

My hat is off to whoever originally located this piece of evidence. I never though about checking CAB administrative proceedings involving proposed service changes. That's always the problem with the absence of evidence -- the evidence can be in a place you don't expect to find it.

[Dr Moore]

My hat is off to whoever originally located this piece of evidence. I never though about checking CAB administrative proceedings involving proposed service changes. That's always the problem with the absence of evidence -- the evidence can be in a place you don't expect to find it.

Same here. It was a fluke of luck that the documentation existed at all. If not for Hughes Airwest attempting to pull service from a small AZ town, there would likely be zero in terms of flight incident records. In this case, an even more thorough FAA investigation as described in the COB doc ought to have generated more legal paperwork … somewhere.

[Res Ipsa]

My hat is off to whoever originally located this piece of evidence. I never though about checking CAB administrative proceedings involving proposed service changes. That's always the problem with the absence of evidence -- the evidence can be in a place you don't expect to find it.

Same here. It was a fluke of luck that the documentation existed at all. If not for Hughes Airwest attempting to pull service from a small AZ town, there would likely be zero in terms of flight incident records. In this case, an even more thorough FAA investigation as described in the COB doc ought to have generated more legal paperwork … somewhere.

I can't tell from what we have how thorough the FAA investigation was. It sounds like it was SOP to request a letter from the FAA in this situation – a carrier requesting to drop a route. The CAB had to evaluate the financial viability and safety records of proposed substitute carrier's. In this case it looked at two: Sky West and Cochise (I think). It could be that the FAA letters were all that was produced in this situation. Hard to say.

The references to court proceedings would basically be appeals from the administrative decision. It's not clear from what I've read whether that actually happened. I'll check that, too.

[Lem]

My hat is off to whoever originally located this piece of evidence. I never though about checking CAB administrative proceedings involving proposed service changes. That's always the problem with the absence of evidence -- the evidence can be in a place you don't expect to find it.

Same here. It was a fluke of luck that the documentation existed at all. If not for Hughes Airwest attempting to pull service from a small AZ town, there would likely be zero in terms of flight incident records. In this case, an even more thorough FAA investigation as described in the COB doc ought to have generated more legal paperwork … somewhere.

According to the various statements about SkyWest’s record in the CAB document, when it was alleged that something had happened that was a significant concern re: public safety, the board decided to investigate further with the FAA and found nothing that rose to that level, and dismissed the concern. It’s an interesting parallel toNelson’s original story and the resulting investigation here.

[Dr Moore]

Same here. It was a fluke of luck that the documentation existed at all. If not for Hughes Airwest attempting to pull service from a small AZ town, there would likely be zero in terms of flight incident records. In this case, an even more thorough FAA investigation as described in the COB doc ought to have generated more legal paperwork … somewhere.

I can't tell from what we have how thorough the FAA investigation was. It sounds like it was SOP to request a letter from the FAA in this situation – a carrier requesting to drop a route. The CAB had to evaluate the financial viability and safety records of proposed substitute carrier's. In this case it looked at two: Sky West and Cochise (I think). It could be that the FAA letters were all that was produced in this situation. Hard to say.

The references to court proceedings would basically be appeals from the administrative decision. It's not clear from what I've read whether that actually happened. I'll check that, too.

If you read over the full text of ~25 pages in the COB, you'll see that it was part of the AZ litigation strategy to accuse SkyWest of being an unsafe operator, due to the fact that 3 engine failures occurred within a period 2-3 months. Evidently the FAA was brought in to conduct a more thorough investigation than would have been customary, and evidently more detail about that investigation is to be found in filings related to the litigation. I wasn't able to find any of those filings, but there is quite a bit more in the COB text about this matter.

[Res Ipsa]

I think I skimmed it all, but read the parts that address safety issues. Here’s a footnote from the order denying the motion for reconsideration:

16 Page also challenged the propriety of the Board's taking official notice of the F A A report which was submitted after the closeof the record, noting that inthe application of Continental (docket 28774)anFAA evaluationwas“submittedintheproceeding."We believethatouractionwasperfectly proper.During the course of the proceeding, no party seriously challenged the safety record ofSky West.Ourrequestforasafetyevaluationby FAAwasmerelyaprecautionarymeasureconsistentwith our normal practice, and as we had no reason to believe that itwould be challenged, itwas perfectly proper for us to take official notice of the report. (Page was,of course, perfectly entitled to challenge that action.However, as the alleged events occurred in October and November 1976 before our original o p i n i o n w a s i s s u e d , w e f a i l t o c o m p r e h e n d w h y P a g e w a i t e d u n t i l M a r c h 1 9 7 7 t o r a i s e t h i s i s s u e .) C f . PublicLaw 93-595,88Stat.1930,rule20.AstotheContinentalcase,itshouldbenotedthattheFAA evaluation was there submitted as posthearing exhibit by the Bureau ofOperating Rights,atthedirec tion of the administrative law judge, pursuant to the request of one of the parties to that proceeding. Page was free to make a similar request in this proceeding and failed todo so.

Sorry for the poor formatting of the cut and paste, but the description of the FAA report, “merely a precautionary measure consistent with normal practice “ was the basis for my comment.

[Dr Moore]

Sorry for the poor formatting of the cut and paste, but the description of the FAA report, “merely a precautionary measure consistent with normal practice “ was the basis for my comment.

Gotcha. I read that part, but recall reading elsewhere that the request for FAA safety evaluation was made in response to Page’s accusation and that the subsequent investigation was “thorough.” Left me with a sense that this safety investigation would not have happened if not for Page questioning the safety record of Sky West.

[Res Ipsa]

Sorry for the poor formatting of the cut and paste, but the description of the FAA report, “merely a precautionary measure consistent with normal practice “ was the basis for my comment.

Gotcha. I read that part, but recall reading elsewhere that the request for FAA safety evaluation was made in response to Page’s accusation and that the subsequent investigation was “thorough.” Left me with a sense that this safety investigation would not have happened if not for Page questioning the safety record of Sky West.

Understood.

[Morley]

I don't know about anyone else, but I've enjoyed the hell out of this thread.

Thank you to all who have done so much to make this discussion so worthwhile. Your invested time and effort have been astonishing.

By the way, it's a thrill to have you back at it, Res.
.

[Res Ipsa]

I don't know about anyone else, but I've enjoyed the hell out of this thread.

Thank you to all who have done so much to make this discussion so worthwhile. Your invested time and effort have been astonishing.

By the way, it's a thrill to have you back at it, Res.
.

Thanks, Morley. You’re very kind. Not sure how much I’ll be back at it for now. Between work and getting back together with friends and family, I’ve been short on internet time. Just ducked in today to see how folks were doing and had a note about the new evidence.

I hope you are doing well. It looks like folks are doing fine, which is nice to see.

I might continue to be more of a lurker for now, but if you hold a candle in front of a mirror and say my name three times…