Can a leftist be considered a faithful Latter Day Saint?

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_Droopy
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Post by _Droopy »

I'm not going to respond to the straight faced whoppers shock told above about WMD or other aspects of the war, as the facts are too numerous for me to collect off my hard drive right now, and it would take an actual book to educate this MoveOn.org automaton on even the basics. I'll just have fun briefly comenting on the stuff below:


1) Clean, renewable energy to get us off the foreign oil addiction, ie, Saudi, Venezuelan, and Mexican oil.


American oil usage as addiction. Classic left wing bumper sticker thought processes not worth responding to. Solar and Wind power are pure science fiction alternatives to petroleum, period. Beyond the obvious and known drawbacks to both, there is no possibility of using either on a mass scale. Wind, beyond small (read personal) applications is a no brainer. Solar may be cost effective and practically efficient in a few decades, but the technology is not near that level yet.

2) Local drilling.


Yes, massive drilling everywhere there is oil, in Alaska, of the pacific coast, of the Florida coast, and reopen as many wells on the continent closed in the seventies as possible.


3) Embargoes on the Islamic Bloc until they make social reforms that place them on equal footing with the Free World.


Pure fantasy. Its never going to happen except by sheer brute force, and that's not going to happen.

4) Dollar for dollar tax incentives to encourage Americans to outfit their homes and cars with solar, wind, and geothermal power systems.


These techoologies are not anything like cost effective or efficeint enough to make any such move. Wind and solar, in particular, are both intermittant and unreliable (depending as they do, on day to day natural processes). These are the romantic fantasies of the environmental movement, not serious proposals.

5) Investing a trillion dollars into American infrastructure that would reduce our dependency on Saudi oil, which would de-fund terror and extremism and empower us to take control of our future rather than being dependent on people who are hostile to us.


Good idea, as long as the money is private and the infrastructure is scientifically and economically sound.


6) Drastically reducing ANYTHING to do with Sharia law, ie, investment, educational grants, banking, commerce, travel, immigration, etc...


Absolutely.


Waging war is a short-term, costly, and ineffective approach to a solution that is complex and enduring.


Until you are attacked. Islamism is not the sole Saudi phenomena you make it out to be. Its all throughout the Middle East and all of it is just as deadly and just as committed as Al Quada. Mohammad Atta came into America on a Iraqi passport, and other 9/11 members passed through that country as well. Hezbollah, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and other numerous groups are just as dangerous as Al Quada and hold to the same ideology. Your above claims are false by all historical measures. Economic sanctions and diplomatic moves not backed up by the very real threat of decisive force are worse than useless: they indicate a timidity and lack of will that to an enemy like Islamism indicates weakness, and to a people who understand and respect little more that strenght and weakness, that's an important factor.

Bush did not start this war. Saddam Hussien started it 17 years ago. Bush ended that war in 2003, but then attempted a nation building project to democratize the country and create a buffer state friendly to the west and hostile to Islamofascism. Al Quada, Islamist fighters and terrorists from other Islamic states, including Syria, Iran, the Sudan, and who knows where, plus the remnats of Saddam's Baathist thugocracy, then continued the war in an attempt to destory any chance of a democratic alternative. The Iraqi people voted in free elections decisively against them. The point? Iraq is dead center of the entire barbaric region, and a democratized Iraq would be a substantial impediment to the further gains of Islamic fundamentalism in the region. A growing economy, open society, and military presence friendly to western interests would be a big thorn in the paw for the other dictatorships in the region. Libya has already come clean about its own WMD program thanks to Bush's supposedly terrible war. Why? Out of fear, the only thing regimes such as this understand?

War worked very well in WWII in solving the problems presented by Hitler and Tojo, and it took upwards of ten years of occupation to democratize those countries. The present war is global, is going to be of long duration whether we like it or not (we cannot "end the war" with these people because they are the aggressors, and it is their choice to continue it. Our only choice is whether to respond or not) and the stakes are at least as high, if not higher, then those in either WWII or the long struggle with Socialism.

If people like you prevail shock, it is perfectly possible that we could lose this war, and that would involve consequences better left to the darkest places of men's minds.

Becoming independent of Middle Eastern oil will not stop them. Russia, China, and other eastern countries are ravenous consumers of Middle Eastern oil (China is growing by leaps and bounds, and will continue to do so in the near term). It will make us independent, which is a good thing, but will not stop terrorism or Iran's nuclear program.

They desire the total destruction of our civilization, and have made itclear that they are ready to fight for generations to see that happens.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »


If Coggins REALLY loved America he would demand:

1) Clean, renewable energy to get us off the foreign oil addiction, ie, Saudi, Venezuelan, and Mexican oil.

2) Local drilling.

3) Embargoes on the Islamic Bloc until they make social reforms that place them on equal footing with the Free World.

4) Dollar for dollar tax incentives to encourage Americans to outfit their homes and cars with solar, wind, and geothermal power systems.

5) Investing a trillion dollars into American infrastructure that would reduce our dependency on Saudi oil, which would de-fund terror and extremism and empower us to take control of our future rather than being dependent on people who are hostile to us.

6) Drastically reducing ANYTHING to do with Sharia law, ie, investment, educational grants, banking, commerce, travel, immigration, etc...



THese are all terrific ideas!
_antishock8
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Post by _antishock8 »

Fact: Nearly 30,000 Americans killed or wounded IN Iraq.

Fact: Nearly a trillion dollars wasted on a country that hates us.

Fact: Terrorism is alive and well, and a "democratized" Iraq ain't gonna change a thing except to give people a quicker route to Islamism.

Fact: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKX6luiM ... re=related

Fact: https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/gen ... ndings.pdf

    The Iraq Survey Group (ISG) investigated pre-OIF activities at Musayyib Ammunition Storage Depot—the storage site that was
    judged to have the strongest link to Chemical Weapons (CW). An extensive investigation of the facility revealed that there was no
    CW activity, unlike previously assessed.

    ISG has uncovered no evidence of illicit research conducted into Biological Weapons agents by universities or
    research organizations.

    Saddam indicated that he would develop [nuclear] weapons necessary to counter any Iranian threat... Saddam Hussein ended the nuclear program in 1991 following the Gulf war. ISG found no evidence to suggest
    concerted efforts to restart the program.


I think I'll go with the CIA on this one... They seem to have better placed sources than Coggins on this matter.

I'm not sure why Mormons would support this nightmare, but to see someone like Coggins, who at least on the surface would appear to have the faculties to understand the implications of this foreign policy disaster, embrace such stupidity and willful ignorance is disheartening to say the least.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_Droopy
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Post by _Droopy »

Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Post by _Droopy »

Or, to make things a little easier for the liberals here who aren't used to much serious or varied reading:



"Key Findings" of the Duelfer Report



What follows are the unedited "Key Findings" from the report issued by Charles Duelfer, Special Advisor to the Director of Central Intelligence on Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction:

Regime Strategic Intent

Key Findings


Saddam Husayn so dominated the Iraqi Regime that its strategic intent was his alone. He wanted to end sanctions while preserving the capability to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction (WMD) when sanctions were lifted.

Saddam totally dominated the Regime's strategic decision making. He initiated most of the strategic thinking upon which decisions were made, whether in matters of war and peace (such as invading Kuwait), maintaining WMD as a national strategic goal, or on how Iraq was to position itself in the international community. Loyal dissent was discouraged and constructive variations to the implementation of his wishes on strategic issues were rare. Saddam was the Regime in a strategic sense and his intent became Iraq's strategic policy.

� Saddam's primary goal from 1991 to 2003 was to have UN sanctions lifted, while maintaining the security of the Regime. He sought to balance the need to cooperate with UN inspections'to gain support for lifting sanctions with his intention to preserve Iraq's intellectual capital for WMD with a minimum of foreign intrusiveness and loss of face. Indeed, this remained the goal to the end of the Regime, as the starting of any WMD program, conspicuous or otherwise, risked undoing the progress achieved in eroding sanctions and jeopardizing a political end to the embargo and international monitoring.

� The introduction of the Oil-For-Food program (OFF) in late 1996 was a key turning point for the Regime. OFF rescued Baghdad's economy from a terminal decline created by sanctions. The Regime quickly came to see that OFF could be corrupted to acquire foreign exchange both to further undermine sanctions and to provide the means to enhance dual-use infrastructure and potential WMD-related development.

� By 2000-2001, Saddam had managed to mitigate many of the effects of sanctions and undermine their international support. Iraq was within striking distance of a de facto end to the sanctions regime, both in terms of oil exports and the trade embargo, by the end of 1999.

Saddam wanted to recreate Iraq's WMD capability which was essentially destroyed in 1991 after sanctions were removed and Iraq's economy stabilized, but probably with a different mix of capabilities to that which previously existed. Saddam aspired to develop a nuclear capability in an incremental fashion, irrespective of international pressure and the resulting economic risks but he intended to focus on ballistic missile and tactical chemical warfare (CW) capabilities.

� Iran was the pre-eminent motivator of this policy. All senior level Iraqi offi cials considered Iran to be Iraq's principal enemy in the region. The wish to balance Israel and acquire status and influence in the Arab world were also considerations, but secondary.

� Iraq Survey Group (ISG) judges that events in the 1980s and early 1990s shaped Saddam's belief in the value of WMD. In Saddam's view, WMD helped to save the Regime multiple times. He believed that during the Iran-Iraq war chemical weapons had halted Iranian ground offensives and that ballistic missile attacks on Tehran had broken its political will. Similarly, during Desert Storm, Saddam believed WMD had deterred Coalition Forces from pressing their attack beyond the goal of freeing Kuwait. WMD had even played a role in crushing the Shi'a revolt in the south following the 1991 cease-fire.

� The former Regime had no formal written strategy or plan for the revival of WMD after sanctions. Neither was there an identifiable group of WMD policy makers or planners separate from Saddam. Instead, his lieutenants understood WMD revival was his goal from their long association with Saddam and his infrequent, but firm, verbal comments and directions to them.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

The fact that any of you can stand reading one word of droopy's right wing rants amazes me.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Droopy
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Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Post by _Droopy »

beastie wrote:The fact that any of you can stand reading one word of droopy's right wing rants amazes me.



What amazes me even more is your invincible and rigorous self censorship when the slightest hint of information, evidence, or facts that might burst the fragile translucent bubble of comfortable left wing nostrums you call knowledge is presented for examination.

So, so very typical of the Left: half educated, ignorant of the very existence of ideas and analysis outside of the safe, narrow womb of the mainstream media, and an attitude of vigorously enforced anti-intellectualism born of the fear of what greater light and knowledge might reveal.

The road to serfdom is paved with the overwhelming fear of the light...
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_antishock8
_Emeritus
Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:02 am

Post by _antishock8 »

Droopy wrote:Or, to make things a little easier for the liberals here who aren't used to much serious or varied reading:



"Key Findings" of the Duelfer Report



What follows are the unedited "Key Findings" from the report issued by Charles Duelfer, Special Advisor to the Director of Central Intelligence on Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction:

Regime Strategic Intent

Key Findings


Saddam Husayn so dominated the Iraqi Regime that its strategic intent was his alone. He wanted to end sanctions while preserving the capability to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction (WMD) when sanctions were lifted.

Saddam totally dominated the Regime's strategic decision making. He initiated most of the strategic thinking upon which decisions were made, whether in matters of war and peace (such as invading Kuwait), maintaining WMD as a national strategic goal, or on how Iraq was to position itself in the international community. Loyal dissent was discouraged and constructive variations to the implementation of his wishes on strategic issues were rare. Saddam was the Regime in a strategic sense and his intent became Iraq's strategic policy.

� Saddam's primary goal from 1991 to 2003 was to have UN sanctions lifted, while maintaining the security of the Regime. He sought to balance the need to cooperate with UN inspections'to gain support for lifting sanctions with his intention to preserve Iraq's intellectual capital for WMD with a minimum of foreign intrusiveness and loss of face. Indeed, this remained the goal to the end of the Regime, as the starting of any WMD program, conspicuous or otherwise, risked undoing the progress achieved in eroding sanctions and jeopardizing a political end to the embargo and international monitoring.

� The introduction of the Oil-For-Food program (OFF) in late 1996 was a key turning point for the Regime. OFF rescued Baghdad's economy from a terminal decline created by sanctions. The Regime quickly came to see that OFF could be corrupted to acquire foreign exchange both to further undermine sanctions and to provide the means to enhance dual-use infrastructure and potential WMD-related development.

� By 2000-2001, Saddam had managed to mitigate many of the effects of sanctions and undermine their international support. Iraq was within striking distance of a de facto end to the sanctions regime, both in terms of oil exports and the trade embargo, by the end of 1999.

Saddam wanted to recreate Iraq's WMD capability which was essentially destroyed in 1991 after sanctions were removed and Iraq's economy stabilized, but probably with a different mix of capabilities to that which previously existed. Saddam aspired to develop a nuclear capability in an incremental fashion, irrespective of international pressure and the resulting economic risks but he intended to focus on ballistic missile and tactical chemical warfare (CW) capabilities.

� Iran was the pre-eminent motivator of this policy. All senior level Iraqi offi cials considered Iran to be Iraq's principal enemy in the region. The wish to balance Israel and acquire status and influence in the Arab world were also considerations, but secondary.

� Iraq Survey Group (ISG) judges that events in the 1980s and early 1990s shaped Saddam's belief in the value of WMD. In Saddam's view, WMD helped to save the Regime multiple times. He believed that during the Iran-Iraq war chemical weapons had halted Iranian ground offensives and that ballistic missile attacks on Tehran had broken its political will. Similarly, during Desert Storm, Saddam believed WMD had deterred Coalition Forces from pressing their attack beyond the goal of freeing Kuwait. WMD had even played a role in crushing the Shi'a revolt in the south following the 1991 cease-fire.

� The former Regime had no formal written strategy or plan for the revival of WMD after sanctions. Neither was there an identifiable group of WMD policy makers or planners separate from Saddam. Instead, his lieutenants understood WMD revival was his goal from their long association with Saddam and his infrequent, but firm, verbal comments and directions to them.


And THIS is why people don't trust Conservatives. He quotes my very same source, but fails to leave out the damning information:

1) Saddam indicated that he would develop [nuclear] weapons necessary to counter any Iranian threat.

2) Saddam Hussein ended the nuclear program in 1991 following the Gulf war. ISG found no evidence to suggest concerted efforts to restart the program.

Saddam simply wanted to retain his professionals, instead of them going to the West, because he felt threatened by Iran and the Iraqi Shiite population who would act as surrogates to the Iranian regime. He was not a direct threat to the United States.

Coggins, you are seriously, seriously, misguided in this attempt to shore up the Bush Presidency. You keep assuming that I'm a Liberal. I am not. I may have some social libertarian tendencies, but I'm extremely nationalistic with a strong emphasis on Federalism. My point? My position doesn't come from an ideology, but on what I think is best for America's short-term and long-term sustainability.

Tying this back to YOU, and to Mormonism, it's patently obvious the Mormon population is majority Republican because of social issues, ie, Gay Marriage. In an attempt to gain favor with a population that will never accept you (American Christians), you sell your soul and in the long-run hurt all of our interests by blindly supporting a party that is as corrupt as any other, has no vision, and is mired in a war that did not have to happen.

I've been to Iraq, Coggins. This fantasy that it will become a beautiful democracy is not going to happen. Tribalism, religion, ethnicity... These things are too ingrained in the culture there along with a religion that encourages violence and war. Invading Iraq had more to do with the neocon notion of Middle Eastern democracy than any sort of fantasy that it was a direct threat to us, had NBC weapons ready to give to Al-Qaeda, or any other myriad of falsities that were promulgated by the government. It's a neocon fantasy. Neo-Conservatism isn't Conservatism, it isn't Naitonalism, and it certainly isn't good for America's future.

I strongly encourage you to re-think your political advocacy, and focus it toward something more compatble with true American Conservative values.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_EAllusion
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Post by _EAllusion »

Droopy wrote:

What this has to do with anything is anyone's guess.
Oh. I just thought it funny that you connected environmentalism to a highly fringe wing within it, left, right, or center. There's a fairly sizeable environmentalist movement within fundamentalist Christianity not really different from mainstream environmentalism as a whole. They are just motivated in part by their faith. They are some of the least likely candidates for the granola pantheism or "earth-worship" types, so I thought the contrast was funny.
_Droopy
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Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 4:06 pm

Post by _Droopy »

EAllusion wrote:
Droopy wrote:

What this has to do with anything is anyone's guess.
Oh. I just thought it funny that you connected environmentalism to a highly fringe wing within it, left, right, or center. There's a fairly sizeable environmentalist movement within fundamentalist Christianity not really different from mainstream environmentalism as a whole. They are just motivated in part by their faith. They are some of the least likely candidates for the granola pantheism or "earth-worship" types, so I thought the contrast was funny.


Yes, and the EV world is abuzz with criticism of the capitulation of some in that community of faith (I'm not too sure about the fundamentalists, but there is a movement within evangelical Protestantism) to the premises of the Left.

See how E. dissembles on these things? There essentially is no environmental movement outside the cultural Left with any social or legal clout, or mainstream media exposure. The entire movement was colonized long ago by the neo-Pantheists (deep ecologists) and the remnants of the pro-communist Left and the American socialist Left. There is a conservative and free market environmental movement, but...well, that's not considered part of the environmental movement. Just try to find one of its spokesmen in a mainstream media venue giving his or her opinion (except of Fox).

The mainstream environmental movement is the movement that gave us An Inconvenient Truth and the Kyoto Protocol.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
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