Daniel Peterson's Article on Book of Mormon in Deseret News

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Equality
_Emeritus
Posts: 3362
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:44 pm

Re: Daniel Peterson's Article on Book of Mormon in Deseret News

Post by _Equality »

Themis wrote:The time line seems to be a bit of an issue here. Apologists want to argue that he couldn't do it in the time allotted(~2 months), but forget that he did some creation many months earlier with the lost 116 pages. He didn't start up again for many months, so how is this not more time for Joseph to prepare for when he starts up again. It's also interested to note that when he did, he started from where he left off.


Yes, the timeline is a factor. Obviously, the shorter the timeline, the more impressive the book's production appears. But even then, it's weak. I mean, how long did it take Kerouac to pound out On the Road? A month? In fact, now that I think about it, On the Road is a pretty good parallel, at least for this limited point. From Wikipedia:

Kerouac often promoted the story about how in April 1951 he wrote the novel in three weeks, typing continuously onto a 120-foot roll of teletype paper. Although the story is true per se, the book was in fact the result of a long and arduous creative process. Kerouac carried small notebooks, in which much of the text was written as the eventful span of road trips unfurled. He started working on the first of several versions of the novel as early as 1948, based on experiences during his first long road trip in 1947. However, he remained dissatisfied with the novel. Inspired by a thousand-word rambling letter from his friend Neal Cassady, Kerouac in 1950 outlined the "Essentials of Spontaneous Prose" and decided to tell the story of his years on the road with Cassady as if writing a letter to a friend in a form that reflected the improvisational fluidity of jazz.

The first draft of what was to become the published novel was written in three weeks in April 1951 while Kerouac lived with Joan Haverty, his second wife, at 454 West 20th Street in Manhattan, New York. The manuscript was typed on what he called "the scroll":a continuous, one hundred and twenty-foot scroll of tracing paper sheets that he cut to size and taped together. The roll was typed single-spaced, without margins or paragraph breaks. In the following years, Kerouac continued to revise this manuscript, deleting some sections (including some sexual depictions deemed pornographic in the 1950s) and adding smaller literary passages.


Like On the Road, the Book of Mormon manuscript was produced in short order. But like Kerouac, Joseph Smith had been cogitating for years on the story and characters of the Book of Mormon. According to his mother, writing about life in the Smith home in the year 1824, some five years before the Book of Mormon manuscript was completed:

During our evening conversations Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities; their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.


Lucy Mack Smith, Biographical Sketches, at 85.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
_DrW
_Emeritus
Posts: 7222
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:57 am

Re: Daniel Peterson's Article on Book of Mormon in Deseret News

Post by _DrW »

sock puppet wrote:Sylvester Stallone wrote the screenplay for Rocky in just three days time (by one account, 20 straight hours by another account--sort of like changes to the accounts of the first vision). It resulted in an Oscar nomination for Stallone for best screenplay, and a movie winning the 1976 best picture and best director Academy Awards. (Stallone lost out only to Paddy Chayefsky for the brilliant screenplay written for Network.)

Does this prove that god had to be involved in writing of the Rocky screenplay and that it is true? (by the way, I have it on good authority that there has been as much archaeological evidence found to support the historicity of Rocky storyline as the storyline of the Book of Mormon. In both instances, the quantum of that evidence is bupkis.)

Sock,

Sometimes the stuff you come up with is truly amazing, and I mean that in the best possible way.

Hope you don't mind if save this one for my counter-apologetics file folder.
_________________________________________________

ETA: Equality also makes some good points in this regard, so they are going into the aforementioned folder as well.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Oct 30, 2011 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Themis
_Emeritus
Posts: 13426
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: Daniel Peterson's Article on Book of Mormon in Deseret News

Post by _Themis »

why me wrote:
Wishful thinking. Poor Joe would have had to memorize the manucript and stick his head in a hat to recite it.


Although not an impossible feat, and Joseph's abilities don't seem to exclude a good memory, it does not mean he would have to memorize much if Oliver was involved. Now I should say I am not advocating for any of these theories.

Plus, experiencing persecution from almost the beginning would have made Joe the fall guy. And for what? At that time, it looked that all will be a failure. And yet he continued knowing that he was a fall guy. And of course he died for sidney's book.


You really should learn some history. First, we don't see this persecution. Second there is no indication of any failure for making the Book of Mormon. In fact after Joseph tried to sell the copyright to make some money. Sounds like this is reasons for creating it in the first place when treasure seeking wasn't going to well. It's seems he was a failure in selling it for money, but started to get a following, so making a religion was the next logical step, and one that is a money maker, and yes he did do well for himself. He would have done better if he wasn't making a number of mistakes, but hey were all human.

by the way he did not die for any book.
42
_Themis
_Emeritus
Posts: 13426
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: Daniel Peterson's Article on Book of Mormon in Deseret News

Post by _Themis »

why me wrote:Where did he write it? And where did he get the pens and paper? And where did he get the ink? Plus the secrecy of it all. Not easy to write such a book with a feathered pen without being seen. Plus, where would he hide the manuscript? Plus, he would have been missed from his family duties.


How do you know this? You bring up some of the worst arguments I have seen on this board. You state things you have no idea about, and have been asked multiple times to back up. Here is another chance for you to back this up.
42
_sock puppet
_Emeritus
Posts: 17063
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: Daniel Peterson's Article on Book of Mormon in Deseret News

Post by _sock puppet »

DrW wrote:
sock puppet wrote:Sylvester Stallone wrote the screenplay for Rocky in just three days time (by one account, 20 straight hours by another account--sort of like changes to the accounts of the first vision). It resulted in an Oscar nomination for Stallone for best screenplay, and a movie winning the 1976 best picture and best director Academy Awards. (Stallone lost out only to Paddy Chayefsky for the brilliant screenplay written for Network.)

Does this prove that god had to be involved in writing of the Rocky screenplay and that it is true? (by the way, I have it on good authority that there has been as much archaeological evidence found to support the historicity of Rocky storyline as the storyline of the Book of Mormon. In both instances, the quantum of that evidence is bupkis.)

Sock,

Sometimes the stuff you come up with is truly amazing, and I mean that in the best possible way.

Hope you don't mind if save this one for my counter-apologetics file folder.
_________________________________________________

ETA: Equality also makes some good points in this regard, so they are going into the aforementioned folder as well.

Thank you, DrW. I wish it was more than just sometimes--but, alas, sometimes I am just speaking as a man. Of course, you may keep it in your folder and use it as it might come in handy.
_Morley
_Emeritus
Posts: 3542
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: Daniel Peterson's Article on Book of Mormon in Deseret News

Post by _Morley »

why me wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:
No, it's very powerful evidence that Joseph simply dictated from the Spalding Manuscript.


Don't tell Emma. She didn't see any manuscript. Neither did the other people present during the process.


The always honest Emma Smith? Wasn't she the woman who said this:

No such thing as polygamy, or spiritual wifery, was taught, publicly or privately, before my husband's death, that I have now, or ever had any knowledge of...He had no other wife but me; nor did he to my knowledge ever have. -- Church History, Volume 3, pp. 355-356
_why me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9589
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Daniel Peterson's Article on Book of Mormon in Deseret News

Post by _why me »

Themis wrote:
why me wrote:Where did he write it? And where did he get the pens and paper? And where did he get the ink? Plus the secrecy of it all. Not easy to write such a book with a feathered pen without being seen. Plus, where would he hide the manuscript? Plus, he would have been missed from his family duties.


How do you know this? You bring up some of the worst arguments I have seen on this board. You state things you have no idea about, and have been asked multiple times to back up. Here is another chance for you to back this up.


I am asking you the questions. Can you answer them? Plus, we tend to forget the rough drafts for such an undertaking. The poor guy had to remember to collect all the scapes, notes, mistake papers left on the floor or table and never let on that he was writing a book to dupe the world.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9589
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Daniel Peterson's Article on Book of Mormon in Deseret News

Post by _why me »

Themis wrote:
You really should learn some history. First, we don't see this persecution. Second there is no indication of any failure for making the Book of Mormon. In fact after Joseph tried to sell the copyright to make some money. Sounds like this is reasons for creating it in the first place when treasure seeking wasn't going to well. It's seems he was a failure in selling it for money, but started to get a following, so making a religion was the next logical step, and one that is a money maker, and yes he did do well for himself. He would have done better if he wasn't making a number of mistakes, but hey were all human.

by the way he did not die for any book.


The persecution began with the publication of the Book of Mormon. In fact, he was arrested twice on trumped up charges and he was found innocent. Plus, the people of palmyra and the surronding areas formed mobs to stop the Mormons during the beginnings of the church. See Bushman.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9589
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Daniel Peterson's Article on Book of Mormon in Deseret News

Post by _why me »

Themis wrote:
by the way he did not die for any book.


He did. If he knew that the book was a fraud and he was in on it, and then he was arrested because of a different reason, and murdered, we can say that it all started with a book that he used to mock god. He died for a book.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Morley
_Emeritus
Posts: 3542
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: Daniel Peterson's Article on Book of Mormon in Deseret News

Post by _Morley »

why me wrote:Where did he write it? And where did he get the pens and paper? And where did he get the ink? Plus the secrecy of it all. Not easy to write such a book with a feathered pen without being seen. Plus, where would he hide the manuscript? Plus, he would have been missed from his family duties.


Why me, you're really asking "And where did he get the pens and paper? And where did he get the ink?" Joseph probably purchased them from the same place that everyone else got their pens, paper, and ink. What kind of bizarre conspiracy question is this?

And where could Joseph hide the manuscript? He could hide his manuscript in...




...in...




...in...




...in his hat*!

Image

[* Are you relieved I said 'hat'?]


why me wrote:I am asking you the questions. Can you answer them? Plus, we tend to forget the rough drafts for such an undertaking. The poor guy had to remember to collect all the scapes, notes, mistake papers left on the floor or table and never let on that he was writing a book to dupe the world.


He really only had to dupe Emma. And we all know how well Joseph was able to dupe Emma.
Post Reply