Blacks weren't allowed to pray in church

[_Darth J]

Isn't it amazing how I would have thought to bring that up if I had not been aware of it?

Yea, all of these things are equal before the Lord, even the Master:

You really are such a fool, and you're an obsessed anti-Mormon.

Yes, Ray, I am the fool. I am the one who is so desperate to find anything positive Brigham Young ever said about black people that your are demanding everyone acknowledge your out-of-context quote.

No doubt you'll have something negative to say about this, too:

LDS Malian Presidential Frontrunner to Speak at UVU.

No doubt you'll have something positive to say about this:

Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness

Prophets anciently and today condemn masturbation. It induces feelings of guilt and shame. It is detrimental to spirituality. It indicates slavery to the flesh, not that mastery of it and the growth toward godhood which is the object of our mortal life. Our modern prophet has indicated that no young man should be called on a mission who is not free from this practice. What is more, it too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation-practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality....

[_RayAgostini]

No doubt you'll have something positive to say about this:

You're an utter fool because you don't realise that you're way behind me, and nothing you've quoted in your agenda here is unfamiliar to me, NOTHING. You're an absolute bore, as far as I'm concerned.

You have no future vision, whatsoever. Maybe you just want to hang on to the past to justify your apostasy, or pending apostasy. I've moved well beyond that. One day you may finally learn.

[_Darth J]

LDS Malian Presidential Frontrunner to Speak at UVU.

"But Elder Holland, why, a mere 33 years ago, would this man have been denied the priesthood?"

"I dunno. Just one of those things. The Church was teaching things and doing things for 148 years because of folklore or something. And the First Presidency was just as sure it was a commandment of God then as we are sure that what we're doing today is a commandment of God. But we're the one, true church!"

[_Darth J]

No doubt you'll have something positive to say about this:

You're an utter fool because you don't realise that you're way behind me, and nothing you've quoted in your agenda here is unfamiliar to me, NOTHING. You're an absolute bore, as far as I'm concerned.

You have no future vision, whatsoever. Maybe you just want to hang on to the past to justify your apostasy, or pending apostasy. I've moved well beyond that. One day you may finally learn.

Huh. Unable to refute the facts of the Church's century and a half of ecclesiastical apartheid, Brigham Young's pervasive racism, or Spencer W. Kimball's bizarre sexual anxieties, Ray descends into an angry tirade.

I certainly could not see this coming.

[_Darth J]

You have no future vision, whatsoever.

Sure I do. One day, the Church will be doing the same revisionist song and dance about gay people as they have been doing for the last 3 decades about black people.

[_RayAgostini]

"But Elder Holland, why, a mere 33 years ago, would this man have been denied the priesthood?"

"I dunno. Just one of those things. The Church was teaching things and doing things for 148 years because of folklore or something. And the First Presidency was just as sure it was a commandment of God then as we are sure that what we're doing today is a commandment of God. But we're the one, true church!"

The Mormons will never win in the eyes of anti-Mormons like you, Darth. No matter what they say, you're guaranteed to twist it to your own tastes. No matter how progressive they are, you'll stone them to death.

You're a pathetic creature.

[_RayAgostini]

Sure I do. One day, the Church will be doing the same revisionist song and dance about gay people as they have been doing for the last 3 decades about black people.

And if they do a turnaround - will you rejoin?

What will make your restless soul happy?

[_Melchett]

The Mormons will never win in the eyes of anti-Mormons like you, Darth. No matter what they say, you're guaranteed to twist it to your own tastes. No matter how progressive they are, you'll stone them to death.

You're a pathetic creature.

Please enlighten me, Ray. I don't see a twisting of the truth.

I'm double checking every quote in full that has been made.

[_RayAgostini]

Please enlighten me, Ray. I don't see a twisting of the truth.

I'm double checking every quote in full that has been made.

One clear-cut position is that the folklore must never be perpetuated. ... I have to concede to my earlier colleagues. ... They, I'm sure, in their own way, were doing the best they knew to give shape to [the policy], to give context for it, to give even history to it. All I can say is however well intended the explanations were, I think almost all of them were inadequate and/or wrong. ...

It probably would have been advantageous to say nothing, to say we just don't know, and, [as] with many religious matters, whatever was being done was done on the basis of faith at that time. But some explanations were given and had been given for a lot of years. ... At the very least, there should be no effort to perpetuate those efforts to explain why that doctrine existed. I think, to the extent that I know anything about it, as one of the newer and younger ones to come along, ... we simply do not know why that practice, that policy, that doctrine was in place.

Jeffrey Holland PBS Interview.

The link probably won't work, but you can look up Elder Holland's PBS interview on the Net.

[_Darth J]

"But Elder Holland, why, a mere 33 years ago, would this man have been denied the priesthood?"

"I dunno. Just one of those things. The Church was teaching things and doing things for 148 years because of folklore or something. And the First Presidency was just as sure it was a commandment of God then as we are sure that what we're doing today is a commandment of God. But we're the one, true church!"

The Mormons will never win in the eyes of anti-Mormons like you, Darth. No matter what they say, you're guaranteed to twist it to your own tastes. No matter how progressive they are, you'll stone them to death.

You're a pathetic creature.

I'm sorry. Should I be more laudatory of the church abandoning its racist practices because it looks like everyone else already has?

I use "practices" on purpose. Much like polygamy, the doctrines behind the priesthood ban have not been repudiated. Only the practice.

There is nothing "progressive" about the LDS Church, Ray. It fought against the civil rights movement in the United States. It fought against the ERA. It fought against same-sex marriage. It never accepts everyone being treated equally until the rest of society already has, and it is forced to. Cf. polygamy.

Someday, after same-sex marriage is generally accepted and society overall isn't bothered by the tiny minority of people who are sexually attracted to the same gender, the Prophet will get a good feeling that now is the time to stop telling gay people they can't have relationships or marry their partners. This will be touted as wonderful, and an example of how the Lord is revealing that things that the rest of the world has already accepted are okay.

When that happens, do you think someone will be ranting against dogmatic anti-Mormons because they won't acknowledge all the positive things that Spencer W. Kimball said about gay people?