Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou

[_Buffalo]

At this point, the MI has shown total disregard and lack of respect for LDS leadership.

Is Mormonism a cult? The maxwell institute is independent of the LDS church. It is made up of LDS scholars and apologists. I remember when critics said that Dan was in the employ of the GAs. False. And this incident proves it. I have no idea why someone would want to go to the GAs for help. It seems farfetched to me. And certainly not a brave thing to do.

If it's independent of the church, how did an apostle exercise editorial control?

[_why me]

It can be said that the Maxwell Institute is now in open war against church leadership, as are you. :)

I am a revolutionary. A GA can give his opinions. But the maxwell institute does not need to follow him. What will the church do? Excommunicate me, dan and greg?

Let the piece be published and let john respond like a man.

[_why me]

If it's independent of the church, how did an apostle exercise editorial control?

He didn't. He gave a suggestion. Did the apostle or seventy read the piece? I guess critics are for burning books too. Let have censorship! is the mantra from the critics.

[_Buffalo]

It can be said that the Maxwell Institute is now in open war against church leadership, as are you. :)

I am a revolutionary. A GA can give his opinions. But the maxwell institute does not need to follow him. What will the church do? Excommunicate me, dan and greg?

Let the piece be published and let john respond like a man.

Obviously they DO need to follow him. It certainly wasn't the MI's idea to quash the piece.

Anyway, I'm glad you're admitting your anti-Mormon status now. You're anti-Mormon, pro-apologist. Pretty much in the same boat as Hamblin et al.

[_Buffalo]

If it's independent of the church, how did an apostle exercise editorial control?

He didn't. He gave a suggestion. Did the apostle or seventy read the piece? I guess critics are for burning books too. Let have censorship! is the mantra from the critics.

Now you're making stuff up. Typical of an anti-Mormon like you.

[_mormonstories]

First of all, John, I want you to know that I applaud the work that you have done, and continue to do. During a very serious trial of my faith, you were instrumental in helping me find peace in my NOMness.

I have spoken with Dan briefly about this incident. Although I will not reveal specifics due to confidentiality issues, I can say that Dan, having read the article, did not view it as a "hit piece", but merely as a piece critical of your work.

However, when he was advised not to publish the article, he complied.

That really appears to be the end of this story. I really don't understand why it is being blown up into some huge federal case.

Since you, John, have not read the article, you are only guessing as to what was actually written.

And, the bottom line is, this article, which it appears, has never been published, and no one has read, will not be published.

What more do you hope to accomplish?

Liz - All I can say is the following:

1) MI/FAIR/FARMS has a history of nasty ad hominem attacks (see the Simon Southerton adultery accusations), so I think I have good cause to be worried/concerned/fearful

2) This came to me leaked from people within the Maxwell Institute who objected to the piece and found it to be distasteful, so I think this warrants additional cause for concern, no?

3) If you could have been at that UVU conference to hear Lou Midgley verbally assault me, threaten me, try to tie me to the death of an elder on my mission, and attempt to tie me to Grant Palmer in 1992....then you would have been concerned too. It was chilling.

4) My goal is to do whatever I can to get folks like the Maxwell Institute and FAIR to stop these tactics...to stop blaming the victim....or to face the public consequences for defaming and deceiving people. That is why I have raised these issues ultimately. I honestly, deeply, sincerely believe that these types of tactics hurt EVERYONE involved. They make the church look bad. They give apologetics a bad name. They punish those who feel like they needed to leave the church. And they mislead people who stay in the church. EVERYONE LOSES, in my opinion.

So I won't stop until these stupid ad hominem attacks stop. And until the apologetic deception stops. Those are my goals in this regard. I'm sorry to speak so plainly, but this is something near and dear to my heart. I'll end, again, with just a few of the HUNDREDS of responses we received in our survey on why people are leaving the church, for additional data points:

From respondent 2108: “The biggest factor was the professional apologists. I watched FARMS and FAIR apologists treat people horribly. For example, Professor Daniel C. Peterson used to lurk on the Recovery from Mormonism site so that he could snatch up quotes from the people posting there, in order to humiliate them. This, coupled with the way apologists tend to treat critics (i.e., with ad hominem attack), was the lynchpin.// I would encourage him/them to do something about the apologists. I think they are the worst aspect of the current Church.”

From respondent 1746: “On honesty, stop leaving it to the apologetics. They are terrible and are doing more damage than good to people’s testimonies with their poor answers. For example....Book of Abraham.”

From respondent 1865: “Please stop the ridiculous apologetics. Their circular reasoning and logical fallacies do more harm than good.”

From respondent 2122: “Please stop with the apologetic as well. Fair and the Maxwell Institute contributed to my leaving the church.”

From respondent 2844: “As I studied Church history and uncovered many controversial historical evidence, I would frequent LDS apologetic sites for answers (e.g. FARMS (now the Maxwell Institute), Shields, FAIR). I soon discovered those sites rarely dealt with the controversial evidences but rather often skirted or obfuscated the issue and frequently resorted to personal attacks on the individuals who were publishing historical information.”

[_why me]

MDD is down. All the traffic on the thread over there must have overloaded the site. :)

Most of the responses there amounted to calling John Dehlin a tattletale. I think everyone on the Internet should be required to do some reading on the psychology of bullying before they're allowed to start posting.

What would you call going to a GA to tattle on someone?

[_why me]

Now you're making stuff up. Typical of an anti-Mormon like you.

I think that Liz has confirmed my statement.

[_why me]

First of all, John, I want you to know that I applaud the work that you have done, and continue to do. During a very serious trial of my faith, you were instrumental in helping me find peace in my NOMness.

I have spoken with Dan briefly about this incident. Although I will not reveal specifics due to confidentiality issues, I can say that Dan, having read the article, did not view it as a "hit piece", but merely as a piece critical of your work.

However, when he was advised not to publish the article, he complied.

That really appears to be the end of this story. I really don't understand why it is being blown up into some huge federal case.

Since you, John, have not read the article, you are only guessing as to what was actually written.

And, the bottom line is, this article, which it appears, has never been published, and no one has read, will not be published.

What more do you hope to accomplish?

Liz - All I can say is the following:

1) MI/FAIR/FARMS has a history of nasty ad hominem attacks (see the Simon Southerton adultery accusations), so I think I have good cause to be worried/concerned/fearful

2) This came to me leaked from people within the Maxwell Institute who objected to the piece and found it to be distasteful, so I think this warrants additional cause for concern, no?

3) If you could have been at that UVU conference to hear Lou Midgley verbally assault me, threaten me, try to tie me to the death of an elder on my mission, and attempt to tie me to Grant Palmer in 1992....then you would have been concerned too. It was chilling.

4) My goal is to do whatever I can to get folks like the Maxwell Institute and FAIR to stop these tactics...to stop blaming the victim....or to face the public consequences for defaming and deceiving people. That is why I have raised these issues ultimately. I honestly, deeply, sincerely believe that these types of tactics hurt EVERYONE involved. They make the church look bad. They give apologetics a bad name. They punish those who feel like they needed to leave the church. And they mislead people who stay in the church. EVERYONE LOSES, in my opinion.

So I won't stop until these stupid ad hominem attacks stop. And until the apologetic deception stops. Those are my goals in this regard. I'm sorry to speak so plainly, but this is something near and dear to my heart. I'll end, again, with just a few of the HUNDREDS of responses we received in our survey on why people are leaving the church, for additional data points:

From respondent 2108: “The biggest factor was the professional apologists. I watched FARMS and FAIR apologists treat people horribly. For example, Professor Daniel C. Peterson used to lurk on the Recovery from Mormonism site so that he could snatch up quotes from the people posting there, in order to humiliate them. This, coupled with the way apologists tend to treat critics (i.e., with ad hominem attack), was the lynchpin.// I would encourage him/them to do something about the apologists. I think they are the worst aspect of the current Church.”

From respondent 1746: “On honesty, stop leaving it to the apologetics. They are terrible and are doing more damage than good to people’s testimonies with their poor answers. For example....Book of Abraham.”

From respondent 1865: “Please stop the ridiculous apologetics. Their circular reasoning and logical fallacies do more harm than good.”

From respondent 2122: “Please stop with the apologetic as well. Fair and the Maxwell Institute contributed to my leaving the church.”

From respondent 2844: “As I studied Church history and uncovered many controversial historical evidence, I would frequent LDS apologetic sites for answers (e.g. FARMS (now the Maxwell Institute), Shields, FAIR). I soon discovered those sites rarely dealt with the controversial evidences but rather often skirted or obfuscated the issue and frequently resorted to personal attacks on the individuals who were publishing historical information.”

Now John, really, you must see what this post means. First of all, your respondents are unknown and so they cannot be questioned. Second, we have no idea if apologetics were responsible for them leaving or if they read from critic sites just how FAIR or the Maxwell Institute hurts the LDS church. My guess is that these people have been so engrossed in critic sites that no answer that apologetics could have given would have saved these people from leaving.

Also, your post seems to show that you wanted to save your own skin. I don't believe in censorship. Would you like to close down the exmo site or the postmo site because of their attacks on the LDS church? Have you read those sites? You should have allowed the piece and responded like a man.

[_Buffalo]

MDD is down. All the traffic on the thread over there must have overloaded the site. :)

Most of the responses there amounted to calling John Dehlin a tattletale. I think everyone on the Internet should be required to do some reading on the psychology of bullying before they're allowed to start posting.

What would you call going to a GA to tattle on someone?

Bullies hate squealers.