Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

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_Markk
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _Markk »

Kevin Graham wrote:False equivalence Markk. Like I said, Kish isn't an idiot.


I never said he was, or you said he did...again, you stated...

I really have no idea why, but after 20 years of online posting I guess something is just wrong with the way I come across to people. Because you can say the same exact thing I want to say but you can do so without coming across like you're picking a fight.

The reason Kish comes off without picking a fight is that he does not call people idiots and other names on a consistent basis, or at all. It was about how the two of you communicate with people.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Markk
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _Markk »

EAllusion wrote:It wasn't the content of the hacked emails that was the problem, but how the press choose to cover them.


So it is the presses fault?

What was the most damaging e-mail the press covered that tipped the election.
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_EAllusion
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _EAllusion »

Kishkumen wrote:
Everything I heard about Clinton's ground game was not encouraging to say the least.


Clinton's ground-game, whatever you make of it on its own terms, was vastly superior to Trump's. This should be viewed as vindication of the "ground game matters very little for presidential elections" proponents.

It likely was not a significant factor in her loss.

I don't believe that the election was necessarily something that had to be decided on a razor thin margin. It was at least partly because of the candidates involved. Clinton was the wrong candidate for the time. I stand by that position. She could have, and probably should have won. If you can beat a highly intelligent and experienced candidate with an unprincipled, undisciplined, and inexperienced moron with no morals for reasons that have little to do with the choice and quality of the candidates, then we are well and truly screwed.


In this post you've made a subtle change in argument. I am in this thread contending that factors cited by Kevin such as voter suppression in key swing states, Russian interference, etc. probably had a decisive impact on the outcome. You have flipped into arguing that Clinton was generally bad, so the election shouldn't have been close enough to have small factors be decisive. None of these, you contend, were the primary cause of her defeat.

That's true. But the primary cause of her defeat was general election conditions. The aggregate of fundamentals models favored the generic Republican by a couple of points. Those models tend to be very accurate. If you are looking at the main reason she lost, that's it. The country was Democrat weary and conditions weren't good enough to overcome that. The fact that Clinton actually beat those projections a little bit suggests, but does not demonstrate, something about either the strength of her or the weakness of Trump. It's almost certainly the weakness of Trump, but it does seem interesting to me that the election ended up right near the sweet spot of what models have been successfully predicting for a while.

If you are looking at candidate specific factors, it is obvious the answer is the fact that Clinton was covered like she was in the middle of Watergate for something that did not even begin to approximate deserving that type or level of coverage. The question then becomes how much of that is because of Clinton and how much of that was because of factors outside of Clinton's control. It's a little from both columns, but I think you are really missing the picture if you don't understand how and why the right-wing media ecosystem can drive mainstream coverage this way. Because that part is not Clinton-specific.

Yeah, I voted for Kerry, the first time I actually voted Democrat, and largely because I thought the Iraq War was a complete fiasco BEFORE we started it. But the guy had zero charisma. It was easy to believe he was weak and unpatriotic. I didn't believe it, but it wasn't because he seemed like a good candidate. It was more because he had the right position on the issues. I had to overcome my dislike of Kerry in order to vote for him. I did not have a lot of confidence he would win. I just figured he might because of the disaster in Iraq. Boy was I wrong.


Whether you like Kerry personally or not has nothing to do with his strength as a candidate. He nearly beat an incumbent president in a decent economy when that president's approvals were in the 50's. If not for the anti-gay marriage amendment strategy, he probably did enough to win it. That's quite an accomplishment. To me, this reads as people who declare whichever team wins the game as the best team. Sometimes the better team loses.

Kerry was a legitimate war hero. George W. Bush was a silver-spoon Yale cheerleader who was able to avoid risky military service. And yet, PR was able to turn Kerry into a pussy and George W. Bush into a man's man cowboy. This says something about the power of political messaging, not the traits of the candidates. There has not been a Democratic candidate since the advent of the right-wing media that has not had sustained attacks erode their image. Not one. Any white knight you imagine is going to be the perfect candidate is going to walk out of that gauntlet tarnished in ordinary election circumstances.

If Obama had won more narrowly, then I might be inclined to agree.

Obama was running in conditions nearly as good as what FDR had against Hoover. He did not win a FDR'esque victory. Not even close. Why didn't Democrats win like they did in 1932 given the conditions they were handed on a silver platter? There's several reasons why outside of Obama himself, but your reasoning on this is iffy. I already said it, but it seems like you don't pay enough attention to conditions candidates run in, then falsely attribute success or failure to their personal qualities.

Democrats are going to do well in November. It's an open question whether they are going to do well enough to take legislatures due to gerrymandering, but they are going to win the popular vote by a good margin unless something crazy happens. This is not because Democrats all of a sudden now have better candidates. It's because it is a mid-term and the incumbent Republican president is fairly unpopular.
_EAllusion
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _EAllusion »

Markk wrote:
EAllusion wrote:It wasn't the content of the hacked emails that was the problem, but how the press choose to cover them.


So it is the presses fault?

What was the most damaging e-mail the press covered that tipped the election.


There wasn't a single-most damaging email. What was damaging about the emails was the daily drip-drip of coverage that suggested to low-information voters that there was a shady email story about Clinton out there, deception about the content of those emails amplified by right-wing sources, and the fact that the emails were used to manipulate media cycles. To the latter point, the most significant thing they did on that front was help deflect some of the focus on Trump's tape wherein he confessed to serial sexual assault.

And yeah, if you are assigning blame here, I think the press deserves the lion's share of it compared to Russia. Yes, Russia stole and released those emails. But that wouldn't have meant anything if not for the enormously irresponsible coverage of them in blue chip media sources.
_Markk
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _Markk »

EAllusion wrote:
There wasn't a single-most damaging email. What was damaging about the emails was the daily drip-drip of coverage that suggested to low-information voters that there was a shady email story about Clinton out there, deception about the content of those emails amplified by right-wing sources, and the fact that the emails were used to manipulate media cycles. To the latter point, the most significant thing they did on that front was help deflect some of the focus on Trump's tape wherein he confessed to serial sexual assault.

And yeah, if you are assigning blame here, I think the press deserves the lion's share of it compared to Russia. Yes, Russia stole and released those emails. But that wouldn't have meant anything if not for the enormously irresponsible coverage of them in blue chip media sources.


Give me the context of one of the e-mails, let's go through them one at a time?

Then we can see how the press exploited them and turned the election...fair?
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_EAllusion
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _EAllusion »

Markk wrote:
Give me the context of one of the e-mails, let's go through them one at a time?


There were thousands?

Then we can see how the press exploited them and turned the election...fair?


We're you in a coma the past several years? Are you suggesting you did not notice the press coverage of hacked emails? Or is it that you do not understand what I am claiming? I'm saying it's not the content of the emails that mattered, but rather the tone with which they were covered as an uber-story. There are dozens and dozens of micro-stories that all by themselves are quite forgettable, but add up together into a sense of scandal if you can't mentally track what all these various Clinton "emails!" stories actually refer to and mean, which most people cannot. The personal server story and the wikileaks hacks together received more airtime and front-page coverage than all policy issues combined. And not by a little. By a lot.

On top of this, right-wing media had dozens and dozens of stories regarding those emails that were just flat deceptive. You can start with the 50 or so emails that led to a conspiracy theory that Clinton and Podesta are at the center of a Satanic conspiracy to run a pedophile ring out of a pizza place.

Then on top of this, part of the damage is simply that because the press was busy covering things like innocuous comments Clinton staffers made in private discussion about Catholics, it was spending less time covering things that might hurt Trump, like the fact that he was credibly accused of sexual assault by nearly 2 dozen women.
_Markk
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _Markk »

EAllusion wrote:
Markk wrote:
Give me the context of one of the e-mails, let's go through them one at a time?


There were thousands?

Then we can see how the press exploited them and turned the election...fair?


We're you in a coma the past several years? Are you suggesting you did not notice the press coverage of hacked emails? Or is it that you do not understand what I am claiming? I'm saying it's not the content of the emails that mattered, but rather the tone with which they were covered as an uber-story. There are dozens and dozens of micro-stories that all by themselves are quite forgettable, but add up together into a sense of scandal if you can't mentally track what all these various Clinton "emails!" stories actually refer to and mean, which most people cannot. The personal server story and the wikileaks hacks together received more airtime and front-page coverage than all policy issues combined. And not by a little. By a lot.

On top of this, right-wing media had dozens and dozens of stories regarding those emails that were just flat deceptive. You can start with the 50 or so emails that led to a conspiracy theory that Clinton and Podesta are at the center of a Satanic conspiracy to run a pedophile ring out of a pizza place.

Then on top of this, part of the damage is simply that because the press was busy covering things like innocuous comments Clinton staffers made in private discussion about Catholics, it was spending less time covering things that might hurt Trump, like the fact that he was credibly accused of sexual assault by nearly 2 dozen women.


Just give me a few of the Russian hacked e-mails that the press used, of the thousands, there should be some that are more damaging (by the press) than others...
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
_Some Schmo
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _Some Schmo »

Markk wrote:Just give me a few of the Russian hacked e-mails that the press used, of the thousands, there should be some that are more damaging (by the press) than others...

Dude... you complain about people calling others idiots, and then you post this in direct response to what EA just wrote, as though it made no impression whatsoever.

If you don't want to be called an idiot, you have to meet people halfway.
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_honorentheos
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _honorentheos »

The irony here is that none of the emails were damning, yet it is all anyone heard about. Well, there was the blood ritual Satan worship one...
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_Markk
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Re: Russia Likely Did Swing Votes For Donald Trump

Post by _Markk »

Some Schmo wrote:Dude... you complain about people calling others idiots, and then you post this in direct response to what EAllusion just wrote, as though it made no impression whatsoever.

If you don't want to be called an idiot, you have to meet people halfway.


Huh...I am asking him to simply back up is assertion...?

So far an e-mail about the butt hurt Catholics, that was not really news, does not seem to have effected the election...and some how claiming the press was all over this, instead of Trump is a joke. The press was all over Trump's every move.

Maybe you can elaborate on the e-mails that sunk Hillary
Don't take life so seriously in that " sooner or later we are just old men in funny clothes" "Tom 'T-Bone' Wolk"
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