God can write straight with crooked lines.

[Limnor]

If Mormon god doesn’t command immorality, how do you explain immoral acts claimed as divine commands?

Just as a refresher course, what are some of the specific commands given to Joseph Smith and/or other modern day prophets that were/are immoral? The Lord's actual words condoning and/or commanding specific immoral behavior/practice.

No paraphrasing or interpretive convolutions.

Regards,
MG

Ok so refresher course complete as requested. How do you explain immoral acts claimed as divine commands?

[Gadianton]

The only thing I’d add is whoever wrote those examples was not speaking for God. Maybe for Mormon god, but that’s not the same God as depicted in the Bible.

Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction[a] all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

[Limnor]

The only thing I’d add is whoever wrote those examples was not speaking for God. Maybe for Mormon god, but that’s not the same God as depicted in the Bible.

Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction[a] all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

I’m still thinking through this and appreciate your gentle handling. Your point resonates.

I’ll state it plainly: If God is morally good, then God cannot be the moral author of genocide.

[MG 2.0]

Interpretation can’t be excluded from moral judgment, but IHQ has listed several situations that plainly claim divine command for practices widely regarded as immoral.

I’d add marrying another man’s wife while he was away on a mission.

Did the Lord specifically tell Joseph Smith to marry another man's wife? If so, what were the conditions? For example, when Joseph took Mary Rollins as a polyandrous wife what did that entail?

She was married to Adam Lightner.

Despite her 1842 sealing to Joseph Smith, Mary continued to live as Adam's wife, eventually bearing 10 children with him. At the time of her sealing to Smith, she was actually eight months pregnant with Adam's son.

Researchers have identified that around 11 of Joseph Smith’s plural wives were legally married to other men at the time of their sealing to him in polyandrous marriage relationships.

These sealings are described as "eternity-only" marriages, meaning they were intended to take effect in the next life, and these women continued to live with their legal husbands.

Are these the relationships you are referring to as immoral?

By the way, Adam never joined the church and from an LDS perspective never entered into an eternal marriage covenant with his wife. It was an "until death do us part" marriage.

Polygamy was not a new thing as you know. It has been practiced in various cultures and by Old Testament prophets. It was only when men were not married under the direction/approbation of God that it was a sin.

The question with Joseph, Brigham, and others is whether or not their marriage sealings were acknowledged/approved by God.

Critics are going to obviously say, "H*ll no." This topic along with others has many moving parts which don't lend themselves to easy snap judgements.

God can write straight with crooked lines. Did Joseph always carry out the command of the Lord perfectly?

No. Why? As I've said before, multiple factors. One of the primary ones, in my opinion, being fear.

Limnor, the primary target that critics are going to point at when looking at Joseph Smith is polygamy. This topic is one in which it is better and more useful to dig deeply than just surface level.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Almost to 100!

It's been a good thread overall, in my opinion. Lots of good discussion. That's what this board should be about.

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

I’d add marrying another man’s wife while he was away on a mission.

Did the Lord specifically tell Joseph Smith to marry another man's wife? If so, what were the conditions? For example, when Joseph took Mary Rollins as a polyandrous wife what did that entail?

She was married to Adam Lightner.

Despite her 1842 sealing to Joseph Smith, Mary continued to live as Adam's wife, eventually bearing 10 children with him. At the time of her sealing to Smith, she was actually eight months pregnant with Adam's son.

Researchers have identified that around 11 of Joseph Smith’s plural wives were legally married to other men at the time of their sealing to him in polyandrous marriage relationships.

These sealings are described as "eternity-only" marriages, meaning they were intended to take effect in the next life, and these women continued to live with their legal husbands.

Are these the relationships you are referring to as immoral?

By the way, Adam never joined the church and from an LDS perspective never entered into an eternal marriage covenant with his wife. It was an "until death do us part" marriage.

Polygamy was not a new thing as you know. It has been practiced in various cultures and by Old Testament prophets. It was only when men were not married under the direction/approbation of God that it was a sin.

The question with Joseph, Brigham, and others is whether or not their marriage sealings were acknowledged/approved by God.

Critics are going to obviously say, "H*ll no." This topic along with others has many moving parts which don't lend themselves to easy snap judgements.

God can write straight with crooked lines. Did Joseph always carry out the command of the Lord perfectly?

No. Why? As I've said before, multiple factors. One of the primary ones, in my opinion, being fear.

Limnor, the primary target that critics are going to point at when looking at Joseph Smith is polygamy. This topic is one in which it is better and more useful to dig deeply than just surface level.

Regards,
MG

Complexity doesn’t remove invoking God’s authority to disrupt existing marriages.

[I Have Questions]

I’d add marrying another man’s wife while he was away on a mission.

Did the Lord specifically tell Joseph Smith to marry another man's wife? If so, what were the conditions? For example, when Joseph took Mary Rollins as a polyandrous wife what did that entail?

She was married to Adam Lightner.

Despite her 1842 sealing to Joseph Smith, Mary continued to live as Adam's wife, eventually bearing 10 children with him. At the time of her sealing to Smith, she was actually eight months pregnant with Adam's son.

Researchers have identified that around 11 of Joseph Smith’s plural wives were legally married to other men at the time of their sealing to him in polyandrous marriage relationships.

These sealings are described as "eternity-only" marriages, meaning they were intended to take effect in the next life, and these women continued to live with their legal husbands.

Are these the relationships you are referring to as immoral?

I suppose that depends on what moral standards you have.

Mary claimed that Smith had a private conversation with her in 1831, when she was only 12. He told her that she "was the first woman God commanded him to take as a plural wife."

Personally I think a 26 year old man telling a 12 year old girl that she’s going to be a plural wife of his some day, is immoral. What about you?

It’s also worth noting

Mary mentions that her husband was away at the time of her sealing to Smith, so Adam's consent or knowledge is unclear.

By unclear they mean there’s zero evidence that her husband Adam consented to it, nor is there any evidence that he knew about it. MG, do you have evidence that Mary’s son “George” was Adam’s and not Joseph’s?

[I Have Questions]

Just as a refresher course, what are some of the specific commands given to Joseph Smith and/or other modern day prophets that were/are immoral? The Lord's actual words condoning and/or commanding specific immoral behavior/practice.

No paraphrasing or interpretive convolutions.

Regards,
MG

Ok so refresher course complete as requested. How do you explain immoral acts claimed as divine commands?

Bumping for MG as he’s trying to deflect away from answering this.

[MG 2.0]

As is par for the course, I will be accused of not having answered questions brought up earlier...questions that I have already approached and answered.

Just not in a way that is satisfactory to the die hard critics. This is to be expected.

I would encourage inquisitive readers to read what I have already written. At some length, I might say.

It is a cardinal and unassailable 'line in the sand' for critics that Joseph Smith's prophetic legacy is irreparably damaged as a result of the practice of polygamy. There is NOTHING that can steer them away from the dogmatic position that they have taken that polygamy was evil...period...end of sentence.

The evidence shows otherwise. I've provided just a snapshot of Mary Rollins and her husband that might cause one to do a 'double take' as they take a birds eye view of the practice in LDS history.

For some, it is this one issue that takes them out of the church and even a belief in God. That's unfortunate, in my view.

I don't want to veer off on polygamy at this point on this thread. Only in conjunction with its relationship with the OP. Which is a valid direction to go.

Perfect issue which, in my opinion, we can see God writing straight with crooked lines. I've already discussed this in greater depth earlier. If others want to build on what HAS been said, that's a worthy project.

Regards,
MG

[Gadianton]

Did Joseph always carry out the command of the Lord perfectly?

No. Why? As I've said before, multiple factors. One of the primary ones, in my opinion, being fear.

You've expended a lot of words without answering the simple question: Did God command polygamy?

We're asking a minimal question. Did God command Joseph Smith to practice polygamy in any way shape or form?