FARMS deception surprising to MAD board members

[_It occurs to me . . .]

I found this interesting. A poster started a thread Link thanks to Bond (sorry, don't know how to make the links work. The thread is titled: The Water Under The Earth) about a FARMS video: Journey of Faith II. The video apparently makes a connection between meso american beliefs and Abinidai's statement:

Mosiah 13:12 And now, ye remember that I said unto you: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of things which are in heaven above, or which are in the earth beneath, or which are in the water under the earth.

It was shortly pointed out to him that this was a quote from the Old Testament and did not originate with Abinidai.

From the ten commandments (Exodus 20:4)- "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth".

He expressed disappointment with farms and felt "deception" was involved. He started a new thread addressing that here:

Link ( A Criticism Of Journey Of Faith Ii)

it makes for some interesting reading as many readers seem to agree with him that the video lacks any real scholarship and relies on flimsy or no evidence to support the historocity of the Book of Mormon. An interesting quote:

ALSO, I wanted to mention something to keep in mind while watching this movie. This isn't your Hugh Nibley technical presentation for the toughest of critics, this is an hour and a half presentation compel a simple answer to a simple question. Remember the target audience, and remember "simple answer."

(bold mine)

[_Sethbag]

ROFL. Check this one out from Obiwan. You'd expect this kind of excuse from someone like him:

I don't think it's that big a deal.... You can't fit everything on a subject in a video.

Isn't that just what we've come to expect? It's OK that the movie (which I haven't seen, just going on the posts) quotes Abinadi saying words that they think Mesoamerican people also believed, to show a direct link to the Book of Mormon, and there simply wasn't enough time in the film to also mention that this line from the book of Mosiah was lifted straight out of the Old Testament. How often do we get to hear this "there simply wasn't enough time" excuse? Beastie just quoted John Clark saying essentially the same thing in an email to her about why he didn't qualify a comment he made in a BYU devotional that knowingly went beyond what scholars would feel comfortable saying. I think we've heard Charity use the same excuse.

The funny thing is that I agree that this could have been phrased in a different way and had more of an impact. They could have pointed out the scripture in Exodus first, and then also Mosiah if they wanted, and showed how that had a parallel in Mesoamerican belief. That is, they could have shown it as a traditional Hebrew belief (as evidenced in the Bible) first, and then Mesoamerican, and tied those two cultures together. Instead they went straight for the more sensationalistic (to the TBM "sign seeker" looking for "slam dunks") and end up with egg on their face.

[_beastie]

First, the Judeo-Christian verse is a ban on making representations which could become idols. This is not a Mesoamerican belief, as far as I know. The scripture isn't even saying that the cosmos are divided into three parts, and I don't recall that being discussed elsewhere in the Bible. To put the Mesoamerican belief into context, what they really believed was that you could access these different worlds through these specified portals, like underground rivers. The most sacred spot of all was a cavern in a mountain which would lead to an underground water source. They would throw things in the water for the gods, sometimes even sacrificed children. This is also why they built their pyramids - they were replicating the structure of the mountain, which they viewed as sacred. So, in context, it doesn't even really match the Old Testament source, either.

Second, yes, this is a common method - the omission of important information. Speaking of Clark, he did the exact same thing in his BYU devotional. I don't have our letters in front of me, but the one example I remember without reviewing them is that he cites fortifications in the Book of Mormon as one of the exciting matches to Mesoamerica. In my email to him I listed several sources that Joseph Smith had access to that also described fortifications for ancient American polities. He conceded that this was true, but it was still a match so deserved mention. This is a misleading tactic, as far as I'm concerned.

Another time I've seen this technique frequently used is with the frequency of wars in the Book of Mormon matching real Mesoamerica. When this is used as a "hit", often the apologist mentions that Mesoamerican scholars used to believe that the Maya were largely peaceful. This is true, but Mesoamerican scholars did not develop this viewpoint until the twentieth century. During Joseph Smith period, it was a common belief that not only did the ancient Americans fight lots of wars, but also that one group destroyed the other through these wars.

But no, it would take too much time to mention those inconvenient facts. Give the people what they want, simple faith promoting sound bites, even if they're misleading. After all, these people are probably from Wyoming.

[_The Dude]

My parents are sending me (and all my other siblings) a copy of this new video. Dad informed me it is a scholarly production, and he is expecting my feedback. I'll have to send Consiglieri a personal thank you for bringing this to my attention.

Maybe when I finish watching it, one of you guys would be interested in taking a look? (I'm still waiting to recieve it myself).

[_beastie]

Is it Journey of Faith: The New World? I may order a copy myself, although Brant already appears to be disowning it at MAD.