Lying for the Lord

Post by **_beastie** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:07 am

Interesting thread on MAD, the topic of lying for the Lord. Normally defenders of the faith accuse critics who make this accusation (ie, that LDS have encouraged lying for the lord in the past, notably with polygamy) of making up malicious lies about LDS. However, on this thread, defenders of the faith are using the Bible to defend this practice. (at least, so far, I haven't gotten all the way through it)

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... opic=29810

mbeesley, after posting about how the Lord instructed Moses to lie about how long they would wander in the wilderness:

hanks for your thoughts, and all the others.

One reason I posted this was that LDS are consistently accused of countenancing "Lying for the Lord," and it appears to me from this incident that rather than being a negative, lying for the Lord is righteous action. Isn't it great that we have holy scriptures, like the Bible and Book of Mormon, so when some self-righteous, self-appointed "minister of Christ" throws the accusation of "lying for the Lord" at us, we can simply shrug our shoulders and respond with a resounding, "So what?"

Another example that I find intriguing is in John 7 where Christ tells his brothers he's not going to go to the feast of the tabernacle and sends them away. Christ subsequently does go to the feast, but does something so he is not recognized.

It brings to mind a comment I made once at Concerned Christians, which has made its way into the tagline of an ex-LDS anti-Mormon poster there who, for some reason or other, seems to think that the statement was outrageous. I said,

QUOTE
We are not convinced of Joseph Smith's prophethood because of anything of he said or did. We are convinced because our Father in Heaven has revealed to each of us, individually, that Joseph Smith was His prophet. Thus, we are convinced of his prophethood in spite of anything he may have said or done.

With that kind of certitude about the divine calling of the Prophet, who cares if he is accused of lying by the infidels.

Gotta love the infidels touch!!

Post by **_beastie** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:10 am

Adding another thought: chalk one up for Dan Vogel's pious fraud theory, which is predicated on the idea of Joseph Smith embracing the idea that sometimes it is the Lord's will to lie.

Post by **_Inconceivable** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:19 am

beastie wrote:Adding another thought: chalk one up for Dan Vogel's pious fraud theory, which is predicated on the idea of Joseph Smith embracing the idea that sometimes it is the Lord's will to lie.

Jesus Quote:

37 But let your communication be Yea, yea; Nay, nay; for whatsoever cometh of more than these is evil.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 12:37)

34 Wo unto the liar, for he shall be thrust down to hell.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 9:34)
Think Smith ever got past the verse, "I Nephi, having been born of goodly parents..."?

Post by **_moksha** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:59 am

I would lie to save Ann Frank and anyone else as well. So obviously I view truth telling as being relative to the situation.

My supposition in regard to religious matters, is that God wishes us to tell the truth. Lying for the Lord, would therefore not be at His request, but rather at the decision of the teller of falsehoods. The question should be asked if the falsehood was employed to serve a greater good or was it used for nefarious purposes?

Post by **_beastie** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:23 am

I think most people would agree that there are times when lying is a moral choice. I'm not arguing against that. The thread interested me due to all the past denials that "lying for the Lord" was ever a notion Mormons could accept. Just going by FAIR/MAD, one would conclude the idea is a complete fabrication of angry anti-mormons.

I definitely think this scores a point for Vogel. I wonder if he's noticed it? I haven't been reading much of MAD lately, so don't know if he still posts there.

_Ray A · Post by **_Ray A** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:35 am

beastie wrote:I think most people would agree that there are times when lying is a moral choice. I'm not arguing against that.

I do agree with this. For example, if I let off wind in a car, I would deny it, and worse, probably blame someone else.

Post by **_karl61** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:39 am

the LDS church is full of liars. Always have been and always will. There are more liars because the church expects so much of it's members. When the church gives nothing but adoring history to their members and their members do nothing but give adoring history back to them during temple interviews. Plus, how missionarys lied and said they wanted to go on a mission when the truth is that they didn't. I know I lied and said I wanted to go. How many missionaries lied when asked if they were worthy: likely ten percent or twenty five hundred a year. That's a low estimate. I didn't lie about that what ever "worthy" is -

_Ray A · Post by **_Ray A** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:50 am

thestyleguy wrote:the LDS church is full of liars.

Do you know when a politician is lying? His lips move.

Post by **_Inconceivable** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:56 am

It would be difficult for me to comment any more thoroughly than what has been done in this article.

Mormon Lying by Richard Packham:

http://home.teleport.com/~packham/lying.htm

Post by **_truth dancer** » Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:37 pm

Amazing!

The ability to justify cruel, harmful, or disgusting behavior is one of the most unusual of human abilities in my opinion.

I find it so very odd that regardless of the behavior, people can figure out a way to make it seem Godly!

We see this tendency ALL over the world and throughout history.

Slaughter babies and children ... fine, just obeying.

Fly a plane into a building... yep, God said.

Agree to kill your child? No big deal if it is God's will.

Married men screwing girls, dozens of women, taking other men's wives? No problem...God commanded it.

Slavery? Concubines? Killing? Fine and dandy... all with God's blessings!

Lie, cheat, deceive, steal ... all fine if it helps people believe.

Treat people cruely? Well, Jesus did it so I can too!

It is truly amazing! This phenomenon is one of the most fascinating of all behaviors by true believers.

It is as if in belief (not just LDS), anyone can do anything they want so long as they claim it is God's will. All compassion, care, kindness, sense of goodness, ideas of "morality," and even one's conscience go out the door if one believes he/she is doing God's will.

Incredible!

~dancer~