Blixa mentioned on another thread some compelling areas where the LDS culture perhaps fails to excel. It made me think of the common statement "well, the church teaches a good lifestyle and good morals...and is family oriented." For the most part, I've believed it. But her list below made me wonder...
Blixa wrote:
BishopRic wrote:I remembered one thing he said at the end that I wanted to comment on. As he was addressing those having the "challenges," he said (paraphrasing), "consider what other church is more true," or "is there another church that has more to offer?"
I hear this comment often, and it drives me crazy!.
LOL, I know. I'm not a believer, but hey, I think some eastern religious philosophies are "more true" (probably the ones that eschew a notion of a final truth entirely) and frankly I can think of lots of other churches that do have more to offer: more genuine community, less anti-gay fulminating, less misogyny, less racist history, less judgementalism, better architecthure, better art, better literature, more beautiful rituals, etc. It would not be a hard list to come up with.
I'm facing the "hang out in the waiting room while my son gets married in the temple" thing in a few months. I'm still irked that this church claims to be so family oriented when they won't even allow a non-believing parent see their child get married! So many policies serve to separate them from non-believers, I have to wonder...is it really "a good, moral lifestyle?"
BishopRic wrote:I'm facing the "hang out in the waiting room while my son gets married in the temple" thing in a few months. I'm still irked that this church claims to be so family oriented when they won't even allow a non-believing parent see their child get married! So many policies serve to separate them from non-believers, I have to wonder...is it really "a good, moral lifestyle?"
I am in the midst of a bit of marriage controversy myself. My youngest is getting married. He passed his worthiness interview with flying colors; so did his fiance. But they are getting married in our ward chapel in January. Why? Because neither of them has had the temple preparation classes! Yes, that's right! The church has put another artificial step into the process now. They haven't had the 7 week course, so they can't go to the temple. As soon as they have the classes, they can get their endowments, and then wait another 10 months for the sealing. Her grandfather is dying, so they want him to be able to see her settled, but the church is putting a spanner in the works.
I told them to choose: her grandfather or the classes. They chose her grandfather. I'm so proud of my son for making the right (in my opinion) choice! And so disgusted with the church for forcing them to make any choice at all.
BishopRic wrote:Blixa mentioned on another thread some compelling areas where the LDS culture perhaps fails to excel. It made me think of the common statement "well, the church teaches a good lifestyle and good morals...and is family oriented." For the most part, I've believed it. But her list below made me wonder...
Blixa wrote:
BishopRic wrote:I remembered one thing he said at the end that I wanted to comment on. As he was addressing those having the "challenges," he said (paraphrasing), "consider what other church is more true," or "is there another church that has more to offer?"
I hear this comment often, and it drives me crazy!.
LOL, I know. I'm not a believer, but hey, I think some eastern religious philosophies are "more true" (probably the ones that eschew a notion of a final truth entirely) and frankly I can think of lots of other churches that do have more to offer: more genuine community, less anti-gay fulminating, less misogyny, less racist history, less judgementalism, better architecthure, better art, better literature, more beautiful rituals, etc. It would not be a hard list to come up with.
I'm facing the "hang out in the waiting room while my son gets married in the temple" thing in a few months. I'm still irked that this church claims to be so family oriented when they won't even allow a non-believing parent see their child get married! So many policies serve to separate them from non-believers, I have to wonder...is it really "a good, moral lifestyle?"
Blixa is right. Ad youth programs. As much as I can't stand the born again stadium churches, on my mission they seemed to be the downfall of many LDS youth who weren't accepted in their wards or branches. i know basic human nature exists everywhere, but plenty of organizations do just as good or better job getting people past it.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.
LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
truth dancer wrote:Like most organizations and churches I think there is the good and the bad.
Some of the things that were nice:
1. Support in times of crisis.
2. Nice built in community when we moved.
3. Some basically good teachings concerning honesty, service, etc.
4. Most members are decent folks.
5. Young people often have friends in the church with similar values.
6. Members get help moving... (smile).
7. The VT and HT could potentially be a nice program.
8. Emphasis on education.
9. Service and medical missions, humanitarian service, good welfare program.
10. Kids get experience giving talks, leading committees, etc.
Some of the things that were unhealthy for my personal life:
1. The eliticism - VERY difficult for me to take. The whole, "you are chosen," you will be a Queen/Goddess/Priestess, idea always felt uncomfortable.
2. The issues surrounding women. :-(
3. The lack of support for one's spiritual journey (there is no journey in Mormonism... just obedience).
4. The elimination of discovery, (one is told all the answers, what is truth, and what one must believe).
5. The teaching to follow and conform rather than embrace one's personal inspiration and path.
6. The emphasis on releasing one's normal way of viewing the world, to embrace, by faith, ideas and doctrines that seems totally unbelievable.
7. The idea there is a one and only way to God.
8. The elimination of cultural diversity.
9. The idea the one's good fortune is based on one's righteousness (in this life or the previous one).
10. The harm caused (still causes) to families who are not all believing members.
11. The hopelessness of the CKHL; procreating children as a polygamous wife for eternity... (sigh).
12. The lack of spiritual motivation or enthusiasm or encouragment, (no Joyce Meyer, Joel Olstein talks... smile).
13. The black and white, us vs. them, we are right you are wrong, we're better than you, thinking.
14. The emphasis on perfection/obedience/conformity...one must fit a very particular mold, especially as a woman.
15. The conflicting, confusing, convoluted doctrine/teachings. (We have the full truth but it keeps changing).
I think there are some folks for whom the church helps, for others it is unhealthy, even hurtful.
~dancer~
Final score: 15 - 10 against...hmmm.
I like your list...agree 100% My second daughter lives and works in Utah County. She is quite content with her LDS lifestyle. I can't see even trying to tell her all the problems with the church. Why burst her very comfortable bubble? She knows I have left for doctrinal reasons, and if she has questions she can come to me. Until then, I rejoice in her happy and simple lifestyle that has everything laid out for her.
I have a strong work ethic and also strong 'family values' I guess you would call it. More than things I would rather be around people I care about, that is what is most important to me. We didn't live by family but would get in the station wagon and drive to Utah any time someone was getting married. We made it to the family reunions every year. In my own family we have continued this even though we are the ones outside the temple and so forth. I feel this sense of loyalty is probably due to my church upbringing. Also me being a hard worker and understanding the value of volunteer work.
This is the only upbringing I had so of course I can't compare how I would have been otherwise.
On the downside, I have a very hard time telling people no. I'm somewhat screwed up sexually. Although I'm a good person, a kind person, a peacemaker, I have to live with the fact that I could have done nothing worse to my parents than leave the church. This is a burden I carry with me every single day.
I don't wish I wouldn't have been raised in the church. It's who I am and where I've come from. I feel it's made me a more interesting person. My family has a very interesting history and I like knowing about it. On the other hand, I won't have my own children subjected to it. I feel it's too dangerous, as I said in the other thread. The level of indoctrination is deep enough that it's nearly impossible to escape, in my opinion. I've shared my story before of being infertile. Going through IVF to have one of my children. Going through it again after that and miscarrying. Knowing that I should stop, just stop. That my body wouldn't take anymore. Hearing that Saturdays' Warrior baby in my head begging me to not forget him/her. You said you wouldn't forget me, mommy. YES, I know Saturdays Warrior is not doctrinal. It doesn't matter, though, what is doctirine when these ideas are put into your head at such a young age. I was 10 when we were listening to that soundtrack. That is very young to be getting such messages. They have only added to my pain.
Insert ironic quote from fellow board member here.
Over on FLAK someone posted this quote from Richard G. Scott:
Are there so many fascinating, exciting thing to do, or so many challenges pressing upon you, that it is hard to keep focused on that which is essential?...Satan has a powerful tool to use against good people, those who are committed to a worthy, righteous life, who want to do good and intend to make the most of this life. His tool is distraction. He has an extensive array of undeniably good things that are used to keep us from doing the essential ones. Have you noticed that when you begin to focus on something truly important, something of eternal significance, there often come thoughts of other good things to distract you? Satan promotes distraction. He would have good people fill their life with 'good things' so there is no room for the 'essential ones.' Have you unconsciously been caught in that trap?
This to me is why Mormonism is not a good way to live. We know it's not true, but then it asks us to forsake good things in favor of the "essential" things. And what are these essential things? Meetings that my believing BIL calls "brutal" and "excruciating." Rituals that serve no purpose. Sacrifice of time, talents, and money in the service of nothing.
Why would good things distract us if the "essential" things are so much better?
Runtu wrote:Over on FLAK someone posted this quote from Richard G. Scott:
Are there so many fascinating, exciting thing to do, or so many challenges pressing upon you, that it is hard to keep focused on that which is essential?...Satan has a powerful tool to use against good people, those who are committed to a worthy, righteous life, who want to do good and intend to make the most of this life. His tool is distraction. He has an extensive array of undeniably good things that are used to keep us from doing the essential ones. Have you noticed that when you begin to focus on something truly important, something of eternal significance, there often come thoughts of other good things to distract you? Satan promotes distraction. He would have good people fill their life with 'good things' so there is no room for the 'essential ones.' Have you unconsciously been caught in that trap?
This to me is why Mormonism is not a good way to live. We know it's not true, but then it asks us to forsake good things in favor of the "essential" things. And what are these essential things? Meetings that my believing BIL calls "brutal" and "excruciating." Rituals that serve no purpose. Sacrifice of time, talents, and money in the service of nothing.
Why would good things distract us if the "essential" things are so much better?
Why would bad things distract us if all other things are so much better? Yet they do. Meetings are essential? Wow. I guess I'm going to hell.
The following are not 'essential' in my ever so humble opinion:
Unnecessary and endless meetings
The need to be busy at all times
Apologetics
Going to every activity
Donating to every good cause
The Council of Fifty's plans for world domination.
I HAVE SPOKEN!!!
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Some of the things that were unhealthy for my personal life:
1. The elitism - VERY difficult for me to take. The whole, "you are chosen," you will be a Queen/Goddess/Priestess, idea always felt uncomfortable.
Just don't buy into it if uncomfy.
2. The issues surrounding women. :-(
LDS Women should be as untraditional as they like. No need to stay barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen.
3. The lack of support for one's spiritual journey (there is no journey in Mormonism... just obedience).
I talk about a spiritual journey all the time. No one ever told me it was wrong.
4. The elimination of discovery, (one is told all the answers, what is truth, and what one must believe).
I disagree. The most authentic beliefs are the ones you have found to be true. Belief is too important of thing not to question.
5. The teaching to follow and conform rather than embrace one's personal inspiration and path.
If you go along with this you simply encourage them to be a cult of obedience. Members help the Church by resisting this tendency.
6. The emphasis on releasing one's normal way of viewing the world, to embrace, by faith, ideas and doctrines that seems totally unbelievable.
I am uncertain what you mean by this.
7. The idea there is a one and only way to God.
As long as you cling to the idea of spiritual pathways, you will not have to worry about saying, "I'm right and you're wrong".
8. The elimination of cultural diversity.
Now this would be wrong. Do we teach this?
9. The idea the one's good fortune is based on one's righteousness (in this life or the previous one).
Is there not some truth to this? Those who persevered to read are more knowledgeable. Those who took yoga are more limber, etc....
11. The hopelessness of the CKHL; procreating children as a polygamous wife for eternity... (sigh).
Does sound tedious. However, some Mormon women have pointed out that we have no reason to assume that this spiritual procreation would be anything like the process we are familiar with.
12. The lack of spiritual motivation or enthusiasm or encouragement, (no Joyce Meyer, Joel Olstein talks... smile).
Yes, this is unfortunately true. Good religious motivational talks are further and fewer between.