Mesoamerican clues...

[_truth dancer]

I recently read, The River Where America Began, (a fabulous book by the way...) anyway, in the book many of the writings of John Smith were included. It struck me how clearly John Smith's writing depicted Virginia in the early 1600's. He vividly describes the Native Americans and their numerous interactions, the landscape, the food sources, the animals, the weather, the trade, resources, the sicknesses, the seasons, the challenges and the comforts, etc. etc. etc.

It got me thinking, (again), of the many things we might expect to find in a book describing Mesoamerica two thousand years ago.

Several years ago on ZLMB and again on FAIR, I started a little list of things that I had come across in my limited reading of Mesoamerica that would give us clues that a document was written during the Book of Mormon timeframe....

This thread is started to compile another more complete and accurate list...

A few things to start:

Maise, jacquars, cacao, turtles, the Mayan calendars and astronomical understandings, obsidian, jade, cotton, Macaw, natural wells, dear, the ball-game, ceramic pottery, chile peppers, squash, papaya, breadnut fruit, beans, mango, turkeys, peccuary, ( think they ate dogs as well?) manioc, limestone, beans, fig tree bark books, terra cotta figurines, tattooing and scarring, poisonous snakes, bull-sharks, crocodiles, tapirs, monkeys, river transportation, rainy season, Mesoamerican names (is there a list of known names anywhere)?

I'm not an expert so some of these items may not be represetative of the time frame or the particular area of Teotihuacan... feel free to correct me on anything here.

What other clues might we expect to find in a text from Mesoamerica, written during the Book of Mormon time frame?

Thanks for any information! :-)

~dancer~

[Anonymous]

Some more crops are coco, pumpkins, bananas, avocado, sweet potato, hog plums, and nance plums . But the most important staple food among the mesoamerican cultures like the maya is maize. Specifically nixtamalized maize soaked in lime and water ground on a metate and used to make tortillas, tamales, and cooked into gruel like foods. Cacao was also used for a drink, especially for special occasions.

Other animals hunted for food include wild turkeys, curassows, wild boar, rabbits, peccaries, armadilows, tapirs, peccary, monkey, turtle, and iguanas. They ate fresh water fish and those along costal areas ate fish, shellfish, lobster, shrimp, and conchs.


Phaedrus

[_beastie]

Definitely we should be able to learn something about ancient Mesoamerica if the Book of Mormon is an ancient Mesoamerican text. In reading the Bible, for example, one is able to learn quite a bit about the religion of the "others". Prophets chastise their people to NOT follow after the heathen, and it is in their description of what NOT to do that we learn about what people were doing in that time period. In addition, the natural element of syncretism, wherein one religion borrows concepts from another can be seen, giving us another opportunity to learn about the practices of the time period.

One of the most crucial ideas in ancient Mesoamerica was Holy Kingship - where the role of the king, through mystical ceremonies including bloodletting, is to transform into ancestral deities in order to obtain the blessings of the gods for their people. This was their most important job, and when it stopped working (ie, the ceremonial duties of the king) in that natural disaster struck anyway, the people then rejected the king and polity, which resulted in abandonment of the polity.

This is so "core" to mesoamerican thought, and so obviously counter to the Judeo Christian theology AND quasi-democratic leadership of the Nephites that it is inconceivable that their prophets would not have warned their people to not "go after" such demonic practices. Yet the Book of Mormon is silent on this practice.

I would also think that the Mesoamerican idea that blood was crucial in "feeding" the gods, to express gratitude and obligation for the gods' act of self sacrifice which created the world, would be seen as threatening to Judeo Christian thought, as well. This was a powerful world view and dominated the region for thousands of years.

[_truth dancer]

Another thing I remembered... they traded feathers.

Also, in the Book of Mormon, they used to keep track of time based on the reign of the judges, then after Christ came they started keepeing a modern day calendar.

My impression is that the Mayan calendar and cosmology in general was a HUGE part of everyday life.

It seems odd that there would be no mention of this at all in the Book of Mormon, but WOULD describe alternative calendars.

Also, does anyone know where Joseph Smith (or SR) may have gotten the idea of a reign of the judges calendar?

Thanks Beastie and Phaedrus for your additions...

~dancer~

[_beastie]

Yes, the calendar was pivotal in their ceremonies and lives. They believed that there were cycles of creation, and in any given cycle, events occurred that mimicked, so to speak, the same events that occurred in the original cycle with the gods. They timed their ceremonies and wars (usually raids for sacrificial victims) to coincide with those important dates.

The reign of the judges could simply be an expansion of some ideas expressed in the Old Testament, namely the book of Judges. Judges 2:16, 17


Nevertheless, the Lord raised up judges, which delivered them out of the hand of those that spoiled them.
And yet, they would not hearken unto their judges, but went whoring after other gods, and bowed themselves unto them, they turned quickly out of the way which their fathers walked in, obeying the commandments of the Lord, but they did not do so.

http://ny.essortment.com/oldtestamentju_rbpg.htm

The book of Judges covers the time period between Joshua and King Saul when Israel had no king. The Lord wanted his people to follow his instructions through the law and prophets, but they always turned from him. Because of their disobedience, God would subject to foreign powers. Afterwards they would repent and God would call a leader known as a Judge to deliver them out of bondage.

Below is a brief description of the men who served as Judges of Israel.

[_charity]

It got me thinking, (again), of the many things we might expect to find in a book describing Mesoamerica two thousand years ago.


~dancer~

Expect? Why do you have any basis to say what to expect in the Book of Mormon when you ignore what the Book itself says it is about?

Nephi and the prophets that followed him repeatedly say this was a record of God's dealings with His children. This is not a travelogue. This is not a journal of an explorer. This is not a novel where setting is necessary to the plot. This is a simple record of a kin group and their religious experience, with only as few details as needed to explain the events.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Charity... :-)

You write:

Expect? Why do you have any basis to say what to expect in the Book of Mormon when you ignore what the Book itself says it is about?

Perhaps you didn't read the OP very well ... I said nothing about expecting something in the Book of Mormon nor have I ignored what the Book of Mormon says it is about. In fact, I completely get what the Book of Mormon says about itself. :-)

Again for you,

It got me thinking, (again), of the many things we might expect to find in a book describing Mesoamerica two thousand years ago.

And,

What other clues might we expect to find in a text from Mesoamerica, written during the Book of Mormon time frame?

And,

I started a little list of things that I had come across in my limited reading of Mesoamerica that would give us clues that a document was written during the Book of Mormon timeframe....

I specifically asked about "a book," or, "a text," not the Book of Mormon, wanting to get some ideas of what generally would be clues for experts in helping them identify a time and place for a text.

The only thing I mentioned about specifics absent in the Book of Mormon was the calendar.

The Book of Mormon clearly and repeatedly discusses calendar systems yet is totally silent on any mention concerning the calendar of the Maya.

:-)

~dancer~

[_beastie]

Expect? Why do you have any basis to say what to expect in the Book of Mormon when you ignore what the Book itself says it is about?

Nephi and the prophets that followed him repeatedly say this was a record of God's dealings with His children. This is not a travelogue. This is not a journal of an explorer. This is not a novel where setting is necessary to the plot. This is a simple record of a kin group and their religious experience, with only as few details as needed to explain the events.

The Bible is also a book about God's dealings with his children. But we can still learn about the larger culture from what those children wrote, can't we? People can't excise themselves from their culture just because they're writing about God.

[_truth dancer]

Also... Charity,

The Book of Mormon is FILLED with all sorts of facts about society, farming, animals, the money system, daily events, weights and measurements, traditions, language, the polity, interactions, friends and enemies, landscape, topography, materials, buildings, wars, and even history to name a few things.

It is silliness to pretend that there would not be some sort of mention of a few items from the culture or environment in a book about a family and its 1,000 year history.

~dancer~

[_beastie]

TD,

You may be interested in the story of the discovery and validation of the Grolier Codex, which was originally viewed as a fake, until it was shown to contain information about Maya concepts of the planet Venus that could not have been known at the time it was discovered.

http://www.famsi.org/mayawriting/codice ... r_kerr.pdf