Are anti-Mormons to blame for Romney's failure?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_dartagnan
_Emeritus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 pm

Are anti-Mormons to blame for Romney's failure?

Post by _dartagnan »

Over at MAD the Mormons are going nuts, trying to blame anyone except Romney for his own failure.

David Bokovoy suggested that tornados struck the Huckabee states the morning after Super Tuesday, as a sign from God. But then when pressed to clarify his position, he calmed down and retracted it. Dan Peterson ran to his defense while crying persecution and posting weba rticles written by non-Mormon Republicans who speculate the Baptists had some part in Romney's loss.

While I can understand why persecution ridden Mormons would see sympathy from outside journalists as something appealing, they keep ignoring the elephant in the room that undermines the point they're trying to make. If Evangelicals are bigots for not voting for a Mormon, then Mormons are also bigots for refusing to vote for an Evangelical minister. The results from Utah and its border states show a tremendous distate for Huckabee. Romney creamed Huckabee in Utah by an 89% margin. Huckabee only got 1% of the vote, his worst performance anywhere. In other border states that margin of victory for Romney was anywhere between 30 and 50%. Yet, Huckabee beats Romney slightly by a measly 3% margin in a few Bible Belt states (even losing one -Florida- to Romney), and all hell breaks loose as the Mormons are crying foul play. Bokovoy and others are becoming emotionally unhinged over this tragic event, calling Huckabee and his crowd, "evil" and "sick."

Mormons can only be grateful that no polls were given in those regions, asking the Mormon groups if they were willing to vote for an Evangelical minister. From what I can surmise online, Mormons aren't happy with Evangelical ministers. If they even make an appearance at a location where some book critical of the LDS faith happened to have been "passed out," then there is the guilt by association game. Nevermind the fact that it is automatically taken for granted that any book that criticizes the LDS faith is considered proof of bigotry.

I haven't met a single Mormon who would vote for an Evangelical minister, and nobody here seems to know of any other Mormon who voted for Huckabee. The "Mormons are conservatives and Huckabee isn't conservative" isn't a valid excuse, because you see Mormons voting for Hillary, Obama and even the whacko Ron Paul, but never Huckabee. That's bigotry folks.

While it has been expressed many times online by Mormons that they see priestcrafts and the works of satan in Evangelical ministers, nobody seems to consider it bigotry. Just look at the numbers folks. The real reason they're upset is because Mormons do not account for 1/4 of the US population (and they never will) so they are not in a position to throw around their weight the way Evangelicals are. Mormonism isn't big enough to start with the tough talk as it did back in the days of Brigham Young, when he was running a society comprised mainly of Mormons and had theocratic tendencies. It has little choice but to lay low and claim victim status in an effort to garner support and consolidate expressed sympathies from others. This is just a sly technique the same as would be used by any no-name politician.

Now the article linked by Dan Peterson brings up the Baptist missionary effort in Utah as an example of bigotry. So 3,000 volunteers marched through Utah for a month and that's bigotry? What about the tens of thousands of Mormons who have marched through the Bible Belt over the past century while trying to convince Evangelicals that theirs is an apostate or (as it has been recently described on this forum) a "man made" faith?

The Southern States meant nothing in the broad scheme of things. This is what nobody here seems to comprehend. This is about simple mathematics. Give all the southern states to Romney, and he is still hundreds of delegates behind McCain. He has no chance, which is why he called it quits.

The connections they are trying to make between Romney's failure as a politician, and the Evangelical influence, simply will not stand up to scrutiny. Let's begin with the obvious.

Huckabee gave a speech at First Baptist Church of Woodstock last sunday. I attended. This is the largest Baptist Church on the planet. The pastor there (Johnny Hunt) is anti-Mormon. My parents occassionally attend because it is only two miles down the road, but most everyone within a 10 mile radius attends that church. The place is like Disneyland it is so huge, and it sits on the border of Cobb and Cherokee counties.

Anyway, my parents live in Cobb county so I found it interesting that Huckabee didn't beat Romney in this county. In fact, Romney beat Huckabee by a 10% margin, winning 33,000 votes to Huckabee's 22,000. In the smaller Cherokee county that borders Cobb, Huckabee won, but only by 1,500 votes. (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primar ... val=GAREP4)

Now they're telling me that the greater Atlanta area and the entire state of Georgia area was influenced by this, when it couldn't even influence its immediate residential areas? Let's take a couple more examples of prominent anti-Mormon areas.

In Orange county California, which is home to notorious anti-Mormons like Hank Hannegraff (who runs the Bible answer Man radio show),and ministries run by Ed Decker (Ex-Mormons for Jesus) and the late Walter Martin, just how did the anti-Mormons influence the voters? Well, it was a slaughter, but in favor of Romney, who won 115,000 votes to Huckabee's measlel 33,000. (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primar ... val=CAREP3) In Maricopa county Arizona, home to Concerned Christians, Romney managed to beat Huckabee by winning four times the votes (100,000 to 25,000).

How can this be if what they're saying is true?

You see the facts outweigh whatever fantasies a poorly developed persecution complex might create. At this website the article argues that the 43% of the Americans who said they wouldn't vote for a Mormon, are most likely democrats: http://iowansforromney.blogspot.com/200 ... igots.html

It also argues that proper understanding of the figures suggest that 83% of Evangelicals would vote for a Mormon.

That 53% figure Mormon apologists love to pull out comes from a 2006 poll, which was before Romney really started making his case before the American people. The idea of a Mormon President seems less realistic at that time. Since then the situation has changed, the same way it changed for John F. Kennedy after he explained how his Catholicism wouldn't interfere with his job. In 1960 a poll said 35% of America wouldn't vote for a Catholic, yet he won. To prove the political landscape has changed, in this recent online poll involving more than 200,000 respondents, 94% of Americans said they would vote for a Mormon: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15936002/

I also presume the rasmussen poll which said 50% of Evangelicals wouldn't vote for a Mormon, was dealing with Evangelicals who were attending Church at the time the survey was taken. Most Evangelicals aren't even active, so it would be dealing with a relatively narrow and insignificant strand within the Evangelical crowd. Not to mention the peer pressure that would be involved if this took place at Church.

And don't forget. If 50% said they'd never vote for a Mormon, that means 50% of them would.

Using whatever hyperbole and rhetoric one may, it is simply not plausible that 50% of the Mormons would ever vote for an Evangelical minister.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Who Knows
_Emeritus
Posts: 2455
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:09 pm

Post by _Who Knows »

Thanks for getting all the data out there. I've said the same thing over and over again on this board.

I don't know if you saw my post from earlier today where i brought up the KSL poll. Go check it out, it's at ksl.com. It says that out of the 90% that voted for mitt, 20 or 30 something percent (i'm too lazy to go look it up now) will now switch their vote to the democratic party, and vote for obama. And get this, only 2% will now vote for huck.

Unfreakingbelievable. They hate the guy so much, that they're willing to switch parties.

edit - here's the link:

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=2625332
Last edited by canpakes on Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_richardMdBorn
_Emeritus
Posts: 1639
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:05 am

Post by _richardMdBorn »

I would guess that it was:

10% anti-LDS sentiment
10% Romney having difficulty communicating to the average person (I've heard that his talk yesterday at CPAC was excellent - maybe this would not a problem if he runs again).
20% perception that Romney was a Northeastern liberal who had flip flopped to conservative positions.
60% independents and Democrats voting for McCain.

Romney did well among conservatives. I voted for Romney Tuesday in the Illinois primary.
_Boaz & Lidia
_Emeritus
Posts: 1416
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:31 am

Post by _Boaz & Lidia »

Dart,

Are you wearing your flip flops?
_Mercury
_Emeritus
Posts: 5545
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:14 pm

Post by _Mercury »

Boaz & Lidia wrote:Dart,

Are you wearing your flip flops?


Nope, but it sounds like he'll be donning his green apron soon.

Dart, your support for romney perplexed me.

From what I can surmise online, Mormons aren't happy with Evangelical ministers.


Being that I misunderstood the foibles of Mormonism for years caused by antimormon christian tactics, it is these EV ministers I still disdain.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_dartagnan
_Emeritus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 pm

Post by _dartagnan »

Thanks for pointing that out Who Me?

David Bokovoy initially said he was a staunch Democrat who would probably be voting for Obama. And then the idea of a Mormon President just tickeled his fancy too much. He said he met Romney and things changed from there. He got so wound up about the idea of a Mormon President, that he had an emotional breakdown when Romney lost.

What is scarier, a group of people who refuse to vote for someone because of religion, or a group of people who insist on voting someone because of religion? I came across a couple of Mormons online who said they would vote Democrat, but none who would vote for an Evangelical minister.

But the hypocrisy is astonishing, because none of these flip-flopers seem to realize that they are the ones voting along religious lines, not the Evangelicals.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_dartagnan
_Emeritus
Posts: 2750
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:27 pm

Post by _dartagnan »

Now if Romney tried to urge his delegates to go with Huckabee, then that would be the ultimate outreach in brotherhood. Imagine that. A Mormon candidate urging his supporters to go with the Evangelical minister, giving him at least a shot at overcoming McCain. It seems Huckabee is more conservative that McCain, and Romney's primary complaint was that McCain was too liberal to represent the conservative party.

So why not?
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_EAllusion
_Emeritus
Posts: 18519
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:39 pm

Re: Are anti-Mormons to blame for Romney's failure?

Post by _EAllusion »

dartagnan wrote:
David Bokovoy suggested that tornados struck the Huckabee states the morning after Super Tuesday, as a sign from God.


Seriously? Got a quote?
_Trevor
_Emeritus
Posts: 7213
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:28 pm

Post by _Trevor »

Mike Huckabee is a bigot. His campaign employed anti-Catholic rhetoric against Brownback, and he personally used anti-Mormon rhetoric (often somewhat subtle, but at least once blatant) to motivate the large numbers of conservative Christians who have been taught that Mormons are not Christians and who were uncomfortable about putting a non-Christian (by their definition) in the Oval Office. In my opinion, had Mike Huckabee not been in the race, it may have been quite close between Romney and McCain. McCain and Huckabee cooperated to knock Romney out. Huckabee may be many things, but he is not a fool, and I am sure he knows he didn't and doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell to get the nomination. We should also remember that Mike Huckabee spoke (keynote, I think) at an SBC conference in 1998 in SLC, where the specific goal was to spread anti-Mormon information among participants, and proselyte Mormons in Utah. The man was not ignorant of anti-Mormonism. He is well-versed in it. His language in that regard was always deliberate. I hold him to be, basically, a scum bucket. And since I am not a Christian, I do hope a storm trashed his house, although I hope no one dear to him was there to get hurt.

Having said that, Mitt ran a poor campaign. The reason he had a chance at the nomination in the first place is that McCain has spent a decade thumbing his nose at conservatives. The only reason to choose McCain over Romney, if you are a conservative, was his better shot at winning the election against either Hillary or Obama. I quit liking John McCain at all when he started to pander to conservative Christians. I guess we see where that ended up. He and Huckabee in bed together. I just hope that Huckabee gets left at the altar, and McCain loses the general election.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Great post Dart. Yes I think far, far fewer LDS would vote for an EV then EVs that would vote for a Mormon. It seems clear that a lot of EVs voted for Mitt even over Huckabee, though I think in general they favored him. But I think more Mormons would have supported Huckabee, or an EV, heck Bush is an evangelical and Mormons love him, had Romney not been in. And more EVs would have supported Romney.

I think Romney did a pretty good job really and came much farther then expected. I think he doomed himself a bit because he did pander to the right wing to much and he did not really find his voice till, I think, after Iowa. But face it. Moderates tend to do better and the republican party I think is moving more to the center. Bush may be partly to blame for this. The reality is McCain just has a broader appeal. But hey, politics are funny. He seemed doomed a about nine months ago and now he will be the nominee.
Post Reply