Believing in Mormonism requires believing in....

[_beastie]

It seems that the longer I’m out of the LDS church the more nonsensical its claims appear. The fact that so many people are fully aware of these issues and yet still find a way to continue believing astonished me when I first realized this occurred, and now still has the power to disturb me, because of what it says about human beings in general.

To me, these are some of the most nonsensical claims of Mormonism. If these claims were presented to LDS outside of their own religious claims, they would rightfully laugh at those making the claims. Tarski’s thread about the rock in the hat prompted these thoughts this morning.

To be a fully believing Mormon, one must believe:

1. in magic rocks
2. in magic underwear that can protect the wearer
3. God has a system of passwords and secret handshakes to get into heaven
4. God sent an angel with a flaming sword to make Joseph Smith practice polygamy
5. God demanded that Joseph Smith marry women who already had husbands
6. a massive Judeo-Christian culture inhabited ancient Mesoamerica and yet disappeared in an Atlantis way without the slightest trace


Just off the top of my head this Saturday morning, these are the claims that are just so outrageous that only religion could make people believe in them. No wonder LDS apologists often appear to have a chip on their shoulders – they have to believe in and defend things that the majority of human beings would simply laugh at. No wonder they so often flaunt their degrees and professional accomplishments. They have to keep assuring others, and themselves, that they’re really smart people despite believing in these things.

I know there have been many posts along this line, but it’s my turn this morning to get this off my chest.

[_Infymus]

That a penis is actually a factory that must not be touched.

That you should tie your hand to the bedpost to keep from touching your factory.

God hates intellectuals, feminists and homosexuals. They are his biggest threat.

God hates criticism - keep it to yourself or be disciplined.

Even if you are disciplined, God still wants his money. Put it aside so when He lets you come back, you can pay it back.

[_Some Schmo]

The #1 outrageous belief that all other Mormon beliefs flow from is that some 14 year old con-man-in-the-making went into the forest and actually saw god... or god and Jesus... or whatever he saw depending on the version you decide to believe.

[_Jason Bourne]

To be a fully believing Mormon, one must believe:

1. in magic rocks

If you mean that Joseph Smith uses a seer stone and/or Urim and Thummim then yes.

2. in magic underwear that can protect the wearer

No. I never believed that garments protected from physical harm and I no many others as well. The protection is spiritual and many view it this way and are fully believing Mormons.

3. God has a system of passwords and secret handshakes to get into heaven

Many Mormons view this fiuratively as well and are full believing Mormons.

4. God sent an angel with a flaming sword to make Joseph Smith practice polygamy
5. God demanded that Joseph Smith marry women who already had husbands

Is this requred for a temple recommend? But I understand the point of this one.

6. a massive Judeo-Christian culture inhabited ancient Mesoamerica and yet disappeared in an Atlantis way without the slightest trace

Agreed though there are more and more the believe the Book of Mormon is inspired fiction.

[_Moniker]

Some things that seemed *off* to me.

1. Adam & Eve
2. Joseph Smith and the polygamy
3. That the spirit is sought for confirmations
4. The different accounts of the first vision
5. God being once man and anthropocentric
6. Global flood
7. Kolob
8. The Kingdoms -- spirit babies, nookie galore in CK
9. The sexuality taboos
10.The Prophet
11.Baptism for the dead
12.The translating process
13.The Book of Mormon

So, I don't really care that others believe them... yet, those are some of the hoops I couldn't jump through.

[_Boaz & Lidia]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cvfE-Cf9Qcc

[_antishock8]

Well, this is certainly a list I'm going to preserve for my kiddos when the time is right...

1. in magic rocks
2. in magic underwear that can protect the wearer
3. God has a system of passwords and secret handshakes to get into heaven
4. God sent an angel with a flaming sword to make Joseph Smith practice polygamy
5. God demanded that Joseph Smith marry women who already had husbands
6. a massive Judeo-Christian culture inhabited ancient Mesoamerica and yet disappeared in an Atlantis way without the slightest trace
7. That a penis is actually a factory that must not be touched.
8. That you should tie your hand to the bedpost to keep from touching your factory.
9. God hates intellectuals, feminists and homosexuals. They are his biggest threat.
10. God hates criticism - keep it to yourself or be disciplined.
11. Even if you are disciplined, God still wants his money. Put it aside so when He lets you come back, you can pay it back.
12. ... that some 14 year old con-man-in-the-making went into the forest and actually saw god... or god and Jesus... or whatever he saw depending on the version you decide to believe.
13. Adam & Eve
14. Joseph Smith and the polygamy
15. That the spirit is sought for confirmations
16. The different accounts of the first vision aren't contradictory and don't invalidate Joseph Smith's story.
17. God being once man and anthropocentric
18. Global flood
19. Kolob
20. The Kingdoms -- spirit babies, nookie galore in CK
21. The sexuality taboos
22.The Prophet
23.Baptism for the dead
24.The translating process
25.The Book of Mormon (ancient Jews in ancient America)

[_beastie]

If you mean that Joseph Smith uses a seer stone and/or Urim and Thummim then yes.

It's not just his use of the seer stone, Jason. You must also logically accept that he could see buried treasures by looking at a stone as well. Why? Joseph Smith used the exact same stone to see buried treasures that he used to translate the Book of Mormon. He assured his investors that he really DID see the treasures, but they slipped beyond their grasp due to mean ghosts guarding the treasures. But he used the same stone, same process. So there are only certain logical conclusions one can draw about the Joseph Smith and his stone:

1. Joseph lied and couldn't really see buried treasures guarded by mean ghosts.
2. Joseph really thought he was seeing buried treasures, but was confused for some reason, and wasn't really seeing real buried treasure.
3. Joseph really did see buried treasure being guarded by mean ghosts.

If you accept number 1, well, then, Joseph Smith is a known liar who made up lies about what he saw in this magic rock, so of course this creates problems for his "religious" claims about translating the Book of Mormon by looking at the same stone.

If you accept number 2, you have similar problems. If Joseph Smith could be so easily confused, then he was probably just as confused about "translating" the Book of Mormon.

Number three is the only option that really allows for retaining belief in Joseph Smith' use of the "seer stone", but it also requires belief in magic rocks.

No. I never believed that garments protected from physical harm and I no many others as well. The protection is spiritual and many view it this way and are fully believing Mormons.

Ok, I'll give you that one.

Many Mormons view this fiuratively as well and are full believing Mormons.

How do you know many Mormons view this as figurative and are fully believing Mormons? It isn't presented as figurative. The only thing that is insinuated is figurative is "the man and the woman", ie, Adam and Eve actually meeting Peter, James, and John as portrayed in the temple.

Is this requred for a temple recommend? But I understand the point of this one.

I'm not talking about what is "required" for a temple recommend. I'm talking about what is required to be a FULLY believing Mormon. If you reject Joseph Smith' claims that God made him practice polygamy, than you are not a FULLY believing Mormon.

Agreed though there are more and more the believe the Book of Mormon is inspired fiction.

I'm sure you're right, but this is an adaption of Mormon belief. I'm talking about what is required to be a FULLY believing Mormon.

[_Jason Bourne]

1. Joseph lied and couldn't really see buried treasures guarded by mean ghosts.
2. Joseph really thought he was seeing buried treasures, but was confused for some reason, and wasn't really seeing real buried treasure.
3. Joseph really did see buried treasure being guarded by mean ghosts.

4: Joseph Smith never saw treasure through his seer stone but for whatever reason God used it to give him the Book of Mormon.

Many Mormons view this fiuratively as well and are full believing Mormons.

How do you know many Mormons view this as figurative and are fully believing Mormons? It isn't presented as figurative. The only thing that is insinuated is figurative is "the man and the woman", ie, Adam and Eve actually meeting Peter, James, and John as portrayed in the temple.

I have asked quite a few. Some do and some don't.

[_beastie]

4: Joseph Smith never saw treasure through his seer stone but for whatever reason God used it to give him the Book of Mormon.

But this still means Joseph Smith lied about being able to see treasure through his seer stone. You don't see how this creates huge problems for belief in his later claims?

I have asked quite a few. Some do and some don't.

Are the people who believe it's figurative and has nothing to do with entrance into the CK "liberal" or "fringie" believers?