Spong: Bible word of God??

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_Roger Morrison
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Spong: Bible word of God??

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Pasted below are some of his assertions. Makes a person wonder WHY these obvious absurdities have so long been burried. He asks a significant question at the end. The answer to which must call responsible church leaders of every sect to face the truth, and their integrity... Especially LDS inspired spokespersons of the divine...

There are also many pre-modern and outdated concepts in the pages of this supposedly divinely inspired book. Divine inspiration does not appear to overcome God's apparent lack of knowledge. "The Word of God" assumed that the earth was the center of a three-tiered universe and that God lived above the sky. According to the Book of Genesis (Chapter 11) that is why people wanted to build a tower so tall that it could reach beyond the sky into heaven where they could commune on a one-to-one basis with God. That is why Moses met God on a mountain top, since the top of a mountain was as close to heaven as a human being could climb. That is why the story of Jesus' ascension into heaven (Acts 1) proclaimed that Jesus simply rose into the sky and traveled beyond the roof of the earth to the abode of God above the sky.

The authors of the Bible also knew nothing about weather fronts, low pressure systems or why rain and wind, hurricanes and tsunamis happen, so they treated weather patterns as acts of divine manipulation designed by God, the judge, to reward good people or to punish evil people. Knowing nothing about germs or viruses, tumors or coronary occlusions, these writers also assumed that sickness was divinely sent punishment for sin, and therefore the way to treat it was with prayers and sacrifices. It is hard to regard these narratives as "The Word of God" since the presuppositions on which these stories rest are believed by no one today. Why, we must wonder, was God so badly informed when the Bible was written, if this book is "The Word of God?"

The most difficult revelation, however, that challenges the traditional belief comes in those passages, which in the light of modern sensitivities, are brutal, wrong, insensitive and even immoral. The Bible, for example, calls for capital punishment for a willfully disobedient child who talks back to his or her parents, for worshipping a false god, for being homosexual, for committing adultery and even for having sex with one's mother-in- law! Would anyone today salute these laws as moral norms? Then there is that strange story about the concubine in the book of Judges who is first gang raped and then thrown on the porch of her master's house, barely breathing, but presumably still alive. Her master then proceeds to cut her into twelve portions, sending one to each of the twelve tribes of Israel as a call to war (Judges 19). If that is not sufficiently grotesque, there is the story of Jepthah murdering his daughter to keep a vow to God (Judges 11). No one can read these stories in church and say, "This is the Word of the Lord."

The Bible contains stories that reek with vengeance, like the account in the book of Psalms (139:9), where the psalmist fantasizes about the desire to dash the heads of Babylonian children against the rocks, or the story in which the prophet Elisha is portrayed in the Book of Kings (II Kings 2) as greeting the taunts of some little boys making fun of his bald head by calling some she bears out of the woods to tear these boys apart and to eat them. Can anyone claim that these narratives are "The Word of the Lord?"

In chapter one of Romans, Paul argues that homosexuality is God's punishment on those who do not worship God properly. When talking about women, Paul and/or his surrogates forbid allowing any woman from having authority over a man. This means, if taken literally, that no woman could ever walk the path that leads to economic, political or ecclesiastical power. I have four daughters. One is the managing director of a major southern financial institution, one is a lawyer working in the office of the Virginia attorney general, one has a PhD in Physics and is the Chief Information Officer of a west coast high-tech startup company, and one is a veteran of a nine year tour of duty in the United States Marine Corps, with 21 months of active duty in the second Iraqi war to her credit. Will these women or countless others like them ever be able or willing to call the Bible the inerrant "Word of God" so long as these grossly discriminating verses are in that book?

Both the Old and the New Testaments endorse slavery as a morally acceptable institution. The Torah prohibits slavery, but only among fellow Jews. "You are to take your slaves from neighboring countries," is its exhortation. I suppose that if citizens of the United States were to call these verses "The Word of God," it would put Canadians and Mexicans at risk.

In Paul's epistles to Philemon and Colossians (if he actually wrote Colossians), this apostle seems to think that slavery is quite legitimate, but that Christians have a duty to make slavery "kinder and gentler." There is no doubt that a kinder and gentler slavery is better than a cruel and hostile slavery, but does anyone today really argue that slavery in any form is not demeaning, life destroying and evil? Yet of a book that contains these directives, there are many who still say, "This is the Word of the Lord!"

Once people could read the Bible for themselves, the claims that the church has made for these scriptures over the centuries became tempered by reality. Many things in the Bible are clearly not "the Word of God." They are immoral, unjust, uninspired and evil.

No religious institution or individual believer can today deny these facts. No one should want to and the convoluted reasoning employed by trapped and exposed fundamentalists is no longer a sufficient cover for profound ignorance.
A literally understood Bible is fated to be abandoned by all educated, thinking people. Does that mean there is no value that can still be attached to this ancient text? No, but it does mean that literalism must be exposed and expelled. What then? We continue next week.

John Shelby Spong



Is the above book the one opened to serious teaching in public schools? If/since it is, then Spong should be commissioned to develop the curriculm and courses of study. Truth will prevail--eventually. Thoughts?? Roger

Edited to add the 'bold' and 'UL'... No response to this point?? Am i over reacting, over sensitive? And, so-called Christians wonder why there is a movement to take Judeo-Christianism out of schools et al. To bow ones' head while some one offers a prayer, in repect of such ancient nonsense, is an afront to intelligence, social justice and human dignity. "God" doesn't countenance such stupidity and the inherant violence and injustice that eminates from such tribal ignorance and indifference to "neighbors"... Enough already! Roger, hot-under-the-collar.
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

I edited the OP, and brought this thread/topic back to the top for further consideration and discussion. Maybe it isn't as diserving as all of the others?
Anyway, 'I' feel better now :-) Warm regards, Roger
_Sethbag
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Post by _Sethbag »

Roger, I did read this when you first posted it, and I liked the article a lot. He certainly points out a lot of the kinds of things that have me convinced that the Old Testament is just ancient Israel's particular brand of mythology.

It is interesting that Christians and Jews and whatnot are all so interested in what ancient Israelites did, as if that somehow takes one back to the "original" religion or something. You know, closer to the source, more authentic, etc. Well, what if ancient Israelite religion were just their own particular mythology? One might as well then find out and believe what the Hittites did, or the ancient Chinese, or the Mayans. Or, better yet, give up the belief in man-made mythologies altogether.

I love it when Mormons and other Christians try to use the Bible as proof of something they're trying to argue with me. Or when a Mormon counters some argument against the Book of Mormon by pointing out that the Bible does the same particular thing, as if that helps. Well no, it doesn't help, if they're both manmade mythology. And they are.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Roger,

Just one question and I admittedly only skimmed through the commentary by Spong. Where does the Bible claim to be the word of God? If Spong addressed that and I didn't catch it, feel free to ignore my question.
_karl61
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Post by _karl61 »

Who is this Spong guy (or gal)?
I want to fly!
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

Jersey Girl wrote:Roger,

Just one question and I admittedly only skimmed through the commentary by Spong. Where does the Bible claim to be the word of God? If Spong addressed that and I didn't catch it, feel free to ignore my question.


Hi Jersey Girl, my Bible's concordance lists about 7 inches of such refs. Begining 1 Kings, 12:22 and ending 'LDS, Article of Faith # 8'... Jesus is said to have said it in Mark 7:13, and in Luke 3, 8. Check it out for detail. Does Bible use authenticate anything but the useage of the term by primitive people? I think not. Warm regards, Roger
_Roger Morrison
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Post by _Roger Morrison »

thestyleguy wrote:Who is this Spong guy (or gal)?


Hi Guy, John Shelby Spong, is retired Bishop of the Episcopalian (Anglican) Church, in Mass. I will paste ??? a note re his current activities. He was instumental in ordaining women & homosexuals into that church. GOOGLE for more.

Paste didn't work. Too much background stuff. He's highly respected in all but Fundy-Evan circles. They consider him to be of Satan. His web-site:
"A New Christianity For A New World" also has an interesting forum. Newest book: Jesus For The Non-Religious is well received. Warm regards, Roger [/quote]
_harmony
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Re: Spong: Bible word of God??

Post by _harmony »

Roger Morrison wrote:Pasted below are some of his assertions. Makes a person wonder WHY these obvious absurdities have so long been burried. He asks a significant question at the end. The answer to which must call responsible church leaders of every sect to face the truth, and their integrity... Especially LDS inspired spokespersons of the divine...


LDS leaders will never never never agree with Spong. To do so would immediately call Joseph a liar. The church is built on the premise that Joseph saw God and Jesus Christ. Anything that casts doubt on that is never going to make it through the door, let alone to the table for discussion.
_Roger Morrison
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Re: Spong: Bible word of God??

Post by _Roger Morrison »

harmony wrote:
Roger Morrison wrote:Pasted below are some of his assertions. Makes a person wonder WHY these obvious absurdities have so long been burried. He asks a significant question at the end. The answer to which must call responsible church leaders of every sect to face the truth, and their integrity... Especially LDS inspired spokespersons of the divine...


LDS leaders will never never never agree with Spong. To do so would immediately call Joseph a liar. The church is built on the premise that Joseph saw God and Jesus Christ. Anything that casts doubt on that is never going to make it through the door, let alone to the table for discussion.


Unfortunately Harmony, you are quite likely correct... However, LDS have skated themselves out of some very awkward circumstances, as you know. WHEN intelligence nudges expediency, THEN our Grandkids will espouse a "New Mormonism" that blends with Spong's "New Christianity in The New World." IMSCO... Warm regards, Roger :-)

PS: Could start in the April 5, LDS Ratification Meeting??? A few thinking folks asserting themselves for "Truth", and who knows, eh?
_Jersey Girl
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Post by _Jersey Girl »

Roger Morrison wrote:
Jersey Girl wrote:Roger,

Just one question and I admittedly only skimmed through the commentary by Spong. Where does the Bible claim to be the word of God? If Spong addressed that and I didn't catch it, feel free to ignore my question.


Hi Jersey Girl, my Bible's concordance lists about 7 inches of such refs. Begining 1 Kings, 12:22 and ending 'LDS, Article of Faith # 8'... Jesus is said to have said it in Mark 7:13, and in Luke 3, 8. Check it out for detail. Does Bible use authenticate anything but the useage of the term by primitive people? I think not. Warm regards, Roger


Hi Roger!

With all due respect, there is no way that the Bible could claim to be the word of God because the Bible simply didn't exist in it's present form when the words in it were written. Now, I would agree that there are quotes that claim to be God's words or that Jesus is claimed to be the Word but the Bible itself couldn't claim that. I will look up the references that you supplied.

Thanks,
Jersey Girl
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