Monson in Brazil

[_dartagnan]

My wife keeps talking about the recent visit from Monson. I keep ignoring her comments but thie portion from an email she sent me really annoyed me.

I really hate the way Mormons invent "spiritual" experiences like the following as "evidence" for the Gospel.

Try to bear with her broken English:

Well I was just thinking how nice it was the day that the profhet was here...Something really interesting happened that day. Monson was in the Hotel and happens to be a friend of ours to pick him up on a Mercedes. He just had flew in from Curitiba from the opening Temple.

And some children sat together on a place to sing far away from the adults. And it was in the front that the children were located and he was wearing a nice shirt/coat that covers his head on a cold weather…Anyway he called that kid and said…wow you are cold kid. He seemed happy and then he said I´m here to see you…then he took his hat off and he was a kid that had cancer with treatment…anyway…I guess Monson realized that later when he saw his bold head. The Oliveira Family. He also told him to sit back on his place and continuing talk about how to Listen; How to have patience; How is important to work; How to Love; How is important to listen the spirit around us; How to make choices; How to accept living and excepting people different among us…and many other things that were beautiful. Well he also said many things that made some people cried. I tought was nice and all…anyway…There were a lady from a ward from our friend that Monson said he wanted to say a hello to her further down to the crowed…She was a bit far away from Monson and he told her that Lord will bless her in many ways and such…Monson also did not know that she was the mother of the child…Well I guess he felt he wanted to talk to her or something that she did need to hear…It was quite interesting…I tought myself…Is this a fraud? Well Is hard to believe but it happened.

Its crap like this that really annoys me. So Monson knew who this kid's mother was without knowing? Oh my, he must be a real prophet!! Why didn't he just heal the kid instead of the cheap theatrics employed by every circus magician?

[_Inconceivable]

what these guys don't understand is this:

If they placed a moritorium on lavish chapel, temple and other Great and Spacious Buildings even for a year and donated every cent to actually feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and liberating the captive, their membership would increase 100 fold (or more).

As a member, I was ashamed at how the leadership allocated money for the same things they have always criticized the Mother Church for.

That mother and child needed more than a hat and a nod (or whatever monson gave the kid).

.11 a day feeds one starving child..

[_Boaz & Lidia]

Dart, good to see you entering into the annoyed exmo stage. You are moving along nicely.

[_Dr. Shades]

Why didn't he just heal the kid instead of the cheap theatrics employed by every circus magician?

You took the words right out of my mouth!

[_dartagnan]

This is one thing that drives me crazy about the LDS Church. It self generates its own "spiritual" experiences through imaginative perspectives, hyperbole, urban legend and even lies. Paul H. Dunn anyone? Everyone knows that those who can come up with the most unbelievable experiences in the ward, are those who are rewarded for being that much spiritual than the next guy. And everyone lives off the testimony of others who claim to have had these experiences.

Nobody even seems to care about the fact that LDS prophets don't do what prophets in the Bible did (provide prophecies, produce new scripture, etc). Who needs evidence when everyone is content to produce their own? The Church couldn't ask for a better system. The LDS leadership literally does nothing that would indicate it is led by God. It just sits back and watches the machine run as designed and the members do all the work for them.

Every corner of Mormondom, whether it be Southern California (where one member knew another member whose cousin in the neighboring Stake, once taught somone who saw the three nephites!) or whether it be at the MTC (where my MTC teacher from Argentina told us wild stories of demon possessions from his mission, and that we should expect an encouter with Satan!) or whether it be in Spain (where LDS converts report visions of Mary with frequency, without the slightest clue that this wouldn't be considered a truly "spiritual" experience in anti-Catholic Utah), spiritual nonsense like this is always fabricated amongst the membership.

And when it turns out that Elder Zorro didn't really have bullets bounce off his garments while serving his mission in Colombia, well, that wasn't a claim the Prophet made, so the Church can still be true. But let's not deprive these people of their fantasies or challenge them. That would be a very unspiritual thing to do.

[_ludwigm]

São Paulo Brazil Temple
17th operating temple

Announcement: 1 March 1975
Groundbreaking and Site Dedication: 20 March 1976 by James E. Faust
Public Open House: September 1978
Dedication: 30 October–2 November 1978 by Spencer W. Kimball
Public Open House: 17 January–14 February 2004
Rededication: 22 February 2004 by Gordon B. Hinckley

Excerpt from the http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/saopaulo/ page:

... At the time, members were expected to raise one-third of the cost of a new temple. With so many having so little, members made extraordinary sacrifices to raise money. One memorable donation was a gold dental bridge presented by an Argentine man to a pair of missionaries. They declined the gift at first, saying they couldn't take the man's teeth, but he responded, "You can't deny me the blessings I will receive by giving this to the Lord for his temple." Elder James E. Faust, who was serving as the South America area supervisor for the Church, heard the story and paid a generous sum of money for the gold. From that day on, he kept the dental bridge as a reminder of the Saints' countless sacrifices. (2) ...

(2). James P. Bell and James E. Faust, "Back to Brazil," In the Strength of the Lord: The Life and Teachings of James E. Faust (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book Company, 1999) 109–110.

[_The Nehor]

This is one thing that drives me crazy about the LDS Church. It self generates its own "spiritual" experiences through imaginative perspectives, hyperbole, urban legend and even lies. Paul H. Dunn anyone? Everyone knows that those who can come up with the most unbelievable experiences in the ward, are those who are rewarded for being that much spiritual than the next guy. And everyone lives off the testimony of others who claim to have had these experiences.

Nobody even seems to care about the fact that LDS prophets don't do what prophets in the Bible did (provide prophecies, produce new scripture, etc). Who needs evidence when everyone is content to produce their own? The Church couldn't ask for a better system. The LDS leadership literally does nothing that would indicate it is led by God. It just sits back and watches the machine run as designed and the members do all the work for them.

Every corner of Mormondom, whether it be Southern California (where one member knew another member whose cousin in the neighboring Stake, once taught somone who saw the three nephites!) or whether it be at the MTC (where my MTC teacher from Argentina told us wild stories of demon possessions from his mission, and that we should expect an encouter with Satan!) or whether it be in Spain (where LDS converts report visions of Mary with frequency, without the slightest clue that this wouldn't be considered a truly "spiritual" experience in anti-Catholic Utah), spiritual nonsense like this is always fabricated amongst the membership.

And when it turns out that Elder Zorro didn't really have bullets bounce off his garments while serving his mission in Colombia, well, that wasn't a claim the Prophet made, so the Church can still be true. But let's not deprive these people of their fantasies or challenge them. That would be a very unspiritual thing to do.

I've found that that kind of story-swapping is much more popular on the fringes of LDS culture. You have the crazy old woman who shares endless stories of angelic visions, the obnoxious man who begins every rambling discourse on what people should do with, "I am inspired to share......", and the nutzoids who pass around faith-enhancing stories through vast chain letters. In my experience, the core, dependable believers of the ward don't do this stuff. I have had experiences that would make great chain e-mail fodder but I wouldn't cheapen them by sharing them like that.

From my perception the ones who get excited over Great-Aunt Bertie's cousin's former roommates spiritual experience are those that don't have spiritual experiences in the first place and are living vicariously through others. Kinda sad.

[_dartagnan]

I've found that that kind of story-swapping is much more popular on the fringes of LDS culture. You have the crazy old woman who shares endless stories of angelic visions, the obnoxious man who begins every rambling discourse on what people should do with, "I am inspired to share......", and the nutzoids who pass around faith-enhancing stories through vast chain letters. In my experience, the core, dependable believers of the ward don't do this stuff. I have had experiences that would make great chain e-mail fodder but I wouldn't cheapen them by sharing them like that.

I totally disagree. This is not fringe. This is something that resonates throughout mainstream Mormonism and can be witnessed on any given testimony sunday. You never hear anyone question or criticize even the most outrageous spiritual claims. Paul H. Dunn is a perfect example, but there are many more, such as my former mission president. He was always trying to come up with crap stories that would make himself appear "spiritual" in some convoluted sense. There may be the silent core that doesn't engage in it by spreading their own BS stories, but that doesn't mean they readily accept the claims of others. This is how testimony meeting is supposed to "strengthen" the testimonies of others.

From my perception the ones who get excited over Great-Aunt Bertie's cousin's former roommates spiritual experience are those that don't have spiritual experiences in the first place and are living vicariously through others. Kinda sad.

But this is virtually all of them. How come nobody ever has a spiritual experience that can be verified? Nobody actually meets the missionary with bullet holes in his pants, but not his garments. He never shows up in the Ensign to tell his story. There are no doctors corroborating the event.

About ten years ago an Apostle came to Atlanta to rededicated the temple after it was being rennovated or something. My friend said his mother was driving in the area and saw a light from the sky coming down in the same area of the temple, at the exact same time of the event. And of course, she didn't even know what was going on at the temple that day so she had no reason to make it up. ANd why didn't anyone else see the light beam? Well, they weren't spiritual enough apparently.

It is crap like this that got passed around all throughout the stake. So who cares if the Apostle doesn't really do anything that one might expect from a biblical prophet. Someone's mom saw light coming down in the area where he was praying. So the Church must be true and I'm just being an anti-spiritual doubter for thinking otherwise!

[_The Nehor]

I've found that that kind of story-swapping is much more popular on the fringes of LDS culture. You have the crazy old woman who shares endless stories of angelic visions, the obnoxious man who begins every rambling discourse on what people should do with, "I am inspired to share......", and the nutzoids who pass around faith-enhancing stories through vast chain letters. In my experience, the core, dependable believers of the ward don't do this stuff. I have had experiences that would make great chain e-mail fodder but I wouldn't cheapen them by sharing them like that.

I totally disagree. This is not fringe. This is something that resonates throughout mainstream Mormonism and can be witnessed on any given testimony sunday. You never hear anyone question or criticize even the most outrageous spiritual claims. Paul H. Dunn is a perfect example, but there are many more, such as my former mission president. He was always trying to come up with crap stories that would make himself appear "spiritual" in some convoluted sense. There may be the silent core that doesn't engage in it by spreading their own BS stories, but that doesn't mean they readily accept the claims of others. This is how testimony meeting is supposed to "strengthen" the testimonies of others.

From my perception the ones who get excited over Great-Aunt Bertie's cousin's former roommates spiritual experience are those that don't have spiritual experiences in the first place and are living vicariously through others. Kinda sad.

But this is virtually all of them. How come nobody ever has a spiritual experience that can be verified? Nobody actually meets the missionary with bullet holes in his pants, but not his garments. He never shows up in the Ensign to tell his story. There are no doctors corroborating the event.

About ten years ago an Apostle came to Atlanta to rededicated the temple after it was being rennovated or something. My friend said his mother was driving in the area and saw a light from the sky coming down in the same area of the temple, at the exact same time of the event. And of course, she didn't even know what was going on at the temple that day so she had no reason to make it up. ANd why didn't anyone else see the light beam? Well, they weren't spiritual enough apparently.

It is s*** like this that got passed around all throughout the stake. So who cares if the Apostle doesn't really do anything that one might expect from a biblical prophet. Someone's mom saw light coming down in the area where he was praying. So the Church must be true and I'm just being an anti-spiritual doubter for thinking otherwise!

You must have had odd Fast & Testimony meetings. I remember having some like this when I was in one particular California ward. Here we don't have a lot of crazy stories.

Most spiritual experiences CAN'T be verified. I can't prove any of mine. I rolled my eyes when watching 60 minutes when President Hinckley was on and what's-his-name Marriott was proudly declaring the garments protected him from harm. Even if he believes that....does he not realize how stupid he sounds? To LDS and non-LDS.

Most intelligent people learn to shut up about them as they often come across as meaningless drivel to everyone else except maybe a close friend or family member. I know a lot of mine would. I remember when I first heard the rumor of the angel that appeared as a hitchhiker and warned that it was too late to begin stocking food storage. It was laughed at. The Bishop told it as a joke and then told everyone if they want revelation on what to do now to pray, read the scriptures, and sanctify yourself. So yes, I think it is fringe. I hate to sound elitist here but I kinda have to to get my point across. I grew up in a family that was often one of the core families in the ward. We socialized most often with families that were very active, all the sons went on Missions, and all their children are still active. The bedrock of the Church. They all shot down these stories. We call them myths. When the Gospel is discussed we discuss the Gospel, not the contents of the latest chain letter.

[_bcspace]

lol Never mind.