Anyone Else Following the Rape/Homosexual/Filthy Lost Virtue

[_Scottie]

How can a rape victim or abuse victim have a "degree of responsibility"? Serious question. I'm wondering if someone can be considered a rape victim and also share in that responsibility? Wouldn't consent be required to share in the responsibility. At that point, isn't it no longer rape? I wonder if Scott is thinking of date rape, where a girl goes on a date thinking it's all innocent, but the guy thinks she's giving out signs that she wants sex. Maybe the Mormon church thinks that it's the girls responsibility to make sure she isn't giving out signs that the guy can misinterpret. I don't know, suggesting that the rape victim is somehow partly responsible seems old fashioned to me. Middle Eastern cultures have similar attitudes toward rape victims. It's a throw back to more barbaric times.

Ok, this is a tricky situation, so I'll try and be delicate.

I know of instances where a girl will willingfully make out, get naked, fondle, oral sex, etc, and when it gets too hot and heavy, says no, but it has gone too far and the guy just does it anyways.

Now, mind you, I believe that no means no. And the guy should have stopped. This IS rape.

But, does she bear some responsibility in this scenario? I say yes, she does.

[_GoodK]

If this thread is about "LDS attitudes toward Rape" then why are we even discussing the "it's better to die than be raped"? This isn't part of LDS beliefs.

And this is why I spoke up. As an LDS woman who was "raised and indocrinated" in LDS teachings, I was NEVER taught that it was better to die than be raped. Anyone who is suggesting this is a prevailing attitude among LDS households is wrong. The impression I got from what Beastie said on page two and TD's agreeing with her, was the suggestion that this was a normal, accepted belief among LDS. It is not. Only a minority would think this (like Paul Ray or Hammer) and it's a holdover from past attitudes of society towards the shame and disgrace rape brought onto an entire family.

With all due respect, I don't think that your personal beliefs regarding this negates the fact that church leaders have commented on it. If we are speaking about the church as a whole, I think the Lord's mouthpieces trump one female member.

[_GoodK]

I know of instances where a girl will willingfully ....

Willingfully... or... willingly ;)

[_Alter Idem]

DblAgent007, but then if you're daughter went limp and survived, she'd have to read Elder Scott's talk where he says that the victim of sexual abuse may well feel like they bear some responsibility for what happened, and need to go talk to the bishop so he can help her through the repentance process.

That in itself is another sick teaching. She's literally damned if she does, and damned if she doesn't.

Sethbag, you should read Elder Scott's last conference talk on this same issue. I think it was completely ignored by all those who took offense at his other talk.

http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/ ... 15,00.html

[_Moniker]

How can a rape victim or abuse victim have a "degree of responsibility"? Serious question. I'm wondering if someone can be considered a rape victim and also share in that responsibility? Wouldn't consent be required to share in the responsibility. At that point, isn't it no longer rape? I wonder if Scott is thinking of date rape, where a girl goes on a date thinking it's all innocent, but the guy thinks she's giving out signs that she wants sex. Maybe the Mormon church thinks that it's the girls responsibility to make sure she isn't giving out signs that the guy can misinterpret. I don't know, suggesting that the rape victim is somehow partly responsible seems old fashioned to me. Middle Eastern cultures have similar attitudes toward rape victims. It's a throw back to more barbaric times.

Ok, this is a tricky situation, so I'll try and be delicate.

I know of instances where a girl will willingfully make out, get naked, fondle, oral sex, etc, and when it gets too hot and heavy, says no, but it has gone too far and the guy just does it anyways.

Now, mind you, I believe that no means no. And the guy should have stopped. This IS rape.

But, does she bear some responsibility in this scenario? I say yes, she does.

Well, of course she deserves to bear responsibility! I mean, what woman would dream of enjoying fondling, oral sex, making out and not expect for a man to rape her if she changes her mind? Phsaw -- she should know that men are incapable of understanding the word "no" and that she should never play with a man's genitalia without him turning into a hormone crazed ape that can't stop.

/snark borderline of being a bitch

[Guest]

I know of instances where a girl will willingfully ....

Willingfully... or... willingly ;)

There go my Utah roots exposing me for the idiot that I am...lol

By the way, I'm going to unthaw some steaks and put them on the bar-b-que.

[_Alter Idem]

If this thread is about "LDS attitudes toward Rape" then why are we even discussing the "it's better to die than be raped"? This isn't part of LDS beliefs.

And this is why I spoke up. As an LDS woman who was "raised and indocrinated" in LDS teachings, I was NEVER taught that it was better to die than be raped. Anyone who is suggesting this is a prevailing attitude among LDS households is wrong. The impression I got from what Beastie said on page two and TD's agreeing with her, was the suggestion that this was a normal, accepted belief among LDS. It is not. Only a minority would think this (like Paul Ray or Hammer) and it's a holdover from past attitudes of society towards the shame and disgrace rape brought onto an entire family.

With all due respect, I don't think that your personal beliefs regarding this negates the fact that church leaders have commented on it. If we are speaking about the church as a whole, I think the Lord's mouthpieces trump one female member.

What? My "personal beliefs" don't matter? That's what we're discussing here and since I'm one of the few actual practicing LDS, I think you are mistaken. How LDS members view rape was the topic. I'm an LDS member and therefore my opinion is relevant.

[_GoodK]

How can a rape victim or abuse victim have a "degree of responsibility"? Serious question. I'm wondering if someone can be considered a rape victim and also share in that responsibility? Wouldn't consent be required to share in the responsibility. At that point, isn't it no longer rape? I wonder if Scott is thinking of date rape, where a girl goes on a date thinking it's all innocent, but the guy thinks she's giving out signs that she wants sex. Maybe the Mormon church thinks that it's the girls responsibility to make sure she isn't giving out signs that the guy can misinterpret. I don't know, suggesting that the rape victim is somehow partly responsible seems old fashioned to me. Middle Eastern cultures have similar attitudes toward rape victims. It's a throw back to more barbaric times.

Ok, this is a tricky situation, so I'll try and be delicate.

I know of instances where a girl will willingfully make out, get naked, fondle, oral sex, etc, and when it gets too hot and heavy, says no, but it has gone too far and the guy just does it anyways.

Now, mind you, I believe that no means no. And the guy should have stopped. This IS rape.

But, does she bear some responsibility in this scenario? I say yes, she does.

Well, of course she deserves to bear responsibility! I mean, what woman would dream of enjoying fondling, oral sex, making out and not expect for a man to rape her if she changes her mind? Phsaw -- she should know that men are incapable of understanding the word "no" and that she should never play with a man's genitalia without him turning into a hormone crazed ape that can't stop.

/snark borderline of being a bitch

Hate to bring this back to Leykis 101, but one of the basics is "No means No."

/recent habit of plugging the Tom Leykis show ad nasuem

[_Scottie]

Well, of course she deserves to bear responsibility! I mean, what woman would dream of enjoying fondling, oral sex, making out and not expect for a man to rape her if she changes her mind? Phsaw -- she should know that men are incapable of understanding the word "no" and that she should never play with a man's genitalia without him turning into a hormone crazed ape that can't stop.

/snark borderline of being a bitch

A bit over dramatic, don't you think? I think I clearly stated that yes, it WAS rape.

So you think this girl should bear ZERO responsibility in this scenario? Not even a teensy eensy little bit??

[_Moniker]

Hate to bring this back to Leykis 101, but one of the basics is "No means No."

/recent habit of plugging the Tom Leykis show ad nasuem

You are incorrigible! Yet, this is one we most definitely agree on!