Anyone Else Following the Rape/Homosexual/Filthy Lost Virtue

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Scottie, yes, you and TD were correct in your understanding of my comments.

A.I. -

I went to BYU in the late seventies. This teaching was so pervasive at that time - ie, that it was better to die fighting than "allow" yourself to be raped" - that the local police (I can't remember if it was BYU police or Provo) conducted sessions with coeds to try and dissuade us from this belief. It was a female officer who came to address us, and she tried to convince us this was NOT a church teaching. Kind of hard to do when we knew what President Kimball had said on the subject:

“Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no Voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.”–Spencer W. Kimball, THE MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS


"It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle." I'm sorry, there is only one reasonable interpretation of these words. If Kimball was not referring to being raped, then he would not have brought up fighting and possibly dying. And he clearly states that chastity can be "taken or stolen". What the heck is he talking about, if not rape?????

I'm sure the LDS church has made progress in this area (they often do, albeit more slowly than the larger culture), but when I was a young female in the church, this was a common attitude, as demonstrated by the fact that BYU (or Provo) felt the need to try and dissuade young women from this idea.

It's not something we're just making up, or exaggerating. For heaven's sake, A.I., the fact that more than one MADdite was supporting this teaching ought to demonstrate that. I don't know how you escaped hearing about it, unless you're quite a bit younger than me.

One of the greatest problems I think the LDS church has is that it has an untrained lay ministry. People who are going to be counseling members with real, sometimes severe, problems - like abuse of one form or another - really need to be trained to do so, so they don't inadvertently do more damage than good. Otherwise, you end up with uninformed, untrained people telling victims of abuse that they, in some way, are to blame for the situation. Someone who has been trained to deal with victims of abuse would realize that abusers carefully train their victims to feel responsible, to take the blame, for the abuse. I can't imagine how damaging it would be to hear that reaffirmed from a respected church leader. Yes, we want victims of abuse to take responsibility for their lives and to be empowered to realize that is their right, but that is different than saying victims of abuse are also at fault for the abusive cycle. And some church leader probing with a victim of rape to see if she needs to "repent" of something, somehow, would be equally damaging.

I absolutely believe that a woman who has been exposed to the teaching that her chastity and virtue is more important than her very life, and that chastity CAN be stolen or taken, will have a much more difficult time dealing with rape than a woman who has not been brought up in such a culture. And no, I never said this is unique to the LDS culture, but when one considers the other cultures that teach this, that is hardly a point in favor of the LDS church.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

Alter Idem wrote:If this thread is about "LDS attitudes toward Rape" then why are we even discussing the "it's better to die than be raped"? This isn't part of LDS beliefs.


I agree completely with you on this. The roots of Mormonism is American and Mormons have been inculcated with American values. While President Kimball may speak of it being better to die than be raped for women or it being better for the men to die than return with dishonor, he is merely echoing Islamic or Klingonese values, and not those of America and western civilization. Mormons may hear these words and perhaps even mouth them, but in the end when it comes to action, they will fall back on western rationality and eschew this screwball call to die instead of live.
Last edited by Jersey Girl on Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Scottie
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Post by _Scottie »

Perhaps I need to understand something from the female posters here...

Do you believe there is a difference in a violent, knife at your throat rape and the type of rape I described above? Or is being raped simply being raped and it is equally traumatic either way?
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman

I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
_Mister Scratch
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Post by _Mister Scratch »

Alter Idem wrote:
Sethbag wrote:DblAgent007, but then if you're daughter went limp and survived, she'd have to read Elder Scott's talk where he says that the victim of sexual abuse may well feel like they bear some responsibility for what happened, and need to go talk to the bishop so he can help her through the repentance process.

That in itself is another sick teaching. She's literally damned if she does, and damned if she doesn't.


Sethbag, you should read Elder Scott's last conference talk on this same issue. I think it was completely ignored by all those who took offense at his other talk.

http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/ ... 15,00.html


I don't think that the new talk really did much to help. Scott mentions how the abuser will get his "comeuppance" at some later time, but spends the bulk of the talk lecturing victims on how they need to be humble, need to be completely submissive before the power of the Church, and need to work towards forgiving the perpetrator. My sense is that Scott is downplaying the victim's role and pain:

Elder Scott wrote:Your preoccupation with a need for justice only slows your healing and allows the perpetrator to continue his abusive control.


In other words, "Shut up and let the male priesthood holders take care of this."
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

Scottie wrote:
Moniker wrote:Well, of course she deserves to bear responsibility! I mean, what woman would dream of enjoying fondling, oral sex, making out and not expect for a man to rape her if she changes her mind? Phsaw -- she should know that men are incapable of understanding the word "no" and that she should never play with a man's genitalia without him turning into a hormone crazed ape that can't stop.

/snark borderline of being a bitch

A bit over dramatic, don't you think? I think I clearly stated that yes, it WAS rape.

So you think this girl should bear ZERO responsibility in this scenario? Not even a teensy eensy little bit??


Was it overdramatic? I don't think so? Why can't a woman enjoy fondling, oral sex, whatever the hell she wants with a willing partner? If the man penetrates her against her will (or whatever) without her consent as being partly her responsibility -- why? 'Cause she's responsible for him not controlling himself? How does that work? She got him so hot and heated that SHE is to blame for his actions??? She is responsible for herself not his actions. If she tells him to stop, he should.

A girl in a car makes out with a boy, maybe he gets a bit farther with each minute and finally when it comes time for penetration she's scared -- what responsibility does she share? She was enjoying herself! It felt good! She was excited -- yet, she decided somewhere along the line she was ready to stop. She shares NO responsibility in what HE does after she draws that line.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_GoodK

Post by _GoodK »

Alter Idem wrote:
GoodK wrote:
Alter Idem wrote:
If this thread is about "LDS attitudes toward Rape" then why are we even discussing the "it's better to die than be raped"? This isn't part of LDS beliefs.

And this is why I spoke up. As an LDS woman who was "raised and indocrinated" in LDS teachings, I was NEVER taught that it was better to die than be raped. Anyone who is suggesting this is a prevailing attitude among LDS households is wrong. The impression I got from what Beastie said on page two and TD's agreeing with her, was the suggestion that this was a normal, accepted belief among LDS. It is not. Only a minority would think this (like Paul Ray or Hammer) and it's a holdover from past attitudes of society towards the shame and disgrace rape brought onto an entire family.


With all due respect, I don't think that your personal beliefs regarding this negates the fact that church leaders have commented on it. If we are speaking about the church as a whole, I think the Lord's mouthpieces trump one female member.


What? My "personal beliefs" don't matter? That's what we're discussing here and since I'm one of the few actual practicing LDS, I think you are mistaken. How LDS members view rape was the topic. I'm an LDS member and therefore my opinion is relevant.


What? No one said your opinion was irrelevant.

What I said was: "I don't think that your personal beliefs regarding this negates the fact that church leaders have commented on it. If we are speaking about the church as a whole, I think the Lord's mouthpieces trump one female member.

I'm glad you don't buy into the idea that women should feel shamed if they do not fight their attacker to the death. But don't you think more TBM women listen to their church leaders - especially the big shots they only see twice a year on television - on issues like this? I certainly think so.

The point of this post, I think, is that the church is shameful for even suggesting women might be better off dead than defiled.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

by the way, let's not forget that the ultimate authority on LDS doctrine - the scriptures - also teach that raped women have lost their chastity and virtue.

Moroni 9
9 And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue—

Now, with this context, go read all those talks about better dead than to lose one's virtue, and perhaps you'll begin to understand why so many LDS believe that a woman should fight being raped to the death.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Scottie
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Post by _Scottie »

Moniker wrote:Was it overdramatic? I don't think so? Why can't a woman enjoy fondling, oral sex, whatever the hell she wants with a willing partner and then be seen as having the man penetrate her against her will (or whatever) without her consent as being partly her responsibility? She is responsible for herself not his actions. If she tells him to stop, he should. Should dancers be raped, Scottie? These are women that get men hot and heated, are, at times, completely nude, are essentially doing foreplay and "making out" with the man -- does she share the responsibility if a man rapes her? Why?

A girl in a car makes out with a boy, maybe he gets a bit farther with each minute and finally when it comes time for penetration she's scared -- what responsibility does she share? She was enjoying herself! It felt good! She was excited -- yet, she decided somewhere along the line she was ready to stop. She shares NO responsibility in what HE does after she draws that line.

You raise some good points.

Exactly where should the line be drawn as to when a girl should start taking responsibility for it? If she kisses a guy, and he rapes her, I don't see her as having any blame what-so-ever.

But, I don't know...there is just something in the back of my mind that says if a girl is going to act like she wants to have sex, and is leading the guy on like she is going to have sex with him, then doesn't...there is SOME responsibility on her part. A stripper isn't leading a guy on. There is a line and he should know where it is. The girl in my scenario has drawn no lines. The guy THINKS he is getting sex, and then she suddenly imposes a line.

However, I'm torn. Because no means no is a very powerful statement.

I just still can't see that she is absolved of any and all responsibility in this case. She HAS to know that if you go this far, there is at least a minimum chance that the guy won't be able to stop, right? I mean, seriously, if you were to go that far with a guy wouldn't it cross your mind at least once that you'd better tell him that you're not going to go all the way with him before getting to a certain point?

There are a lot of girls who love to "tease". They pride themselves on this. And I believe they know damned well the dangers of teasing a guy. So, you tell me. If a girl goes into a bedroom with a guy, with full intent on teasing him to his breaking point, then making him stop but he doesn't, is she absolved from all responsibility?
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman

I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
_skippy the dead
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Post by _skippy the dead »

beastie wrote:Now, with this context, go read all those talks about better dead than to lose one's virtue, and perhaps you'll begin to understand why so many LDS believe that a woman should fight being raped to the death.


To complete the thought: and if she does not fight to the death, she has not properly defended her virtue, and thus would be better of dead.
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
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_GoodK

Post by _GoodK »

Scottie wrote: I mean, seriously, if you were to go that far with a guy wouldn't it cross your mind at least once that you'd better tell him that you're not going to go all the way with him before getting to a certain point?

There are a lot of girls who love to "tease". They pride themselves on this. And I believe they know damned well the dangers of teasing a guy. So, you tell me. If a girl goes into a bedroom with a guy, with full intent on teasing him to his breaking point, then making him stop but he doesn't, is she absolved from all responsibility?


Scottie, my friend, I have to correct you here before Moniker reads this and beats you to death :)

I don't think a girl is required to disclaim whether or not she plans to have sex with the guy before a certain point in time. Shoot, I've been there ready to go, and changed my mind. I dated a really good Mormon girl who would "tease" me mercilessy. For weeks. But I never crossed the line with her. Eventually we had sex, but it was when she was ready.
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