Revelation and Mental Illness

[_Runtu]

I’ve mentioned before my colleague who regularly receives “revelations” and says she can sense “shifts in the universe.” She’s been diagnosed as bipolar, but she doesn’t take her medication. Needless to say, it’s interesting working in the same small area with her.

Today I was talking to a believing Mormon who told me that his mother-in-law had been having revelations about food storage and emergency preparedness and the imminent Second Coming of Jesus. She was adamant that the Holy Ghost was warning her of terrible things to come. At some point, she became convinced that enemies (apparently the government) were monitoring her movements, and to thwart them she got rid of her cell phones and credit cards and anything else that could be used to track her movements.

Thankfully, she got treatment for paranoid schizophrenia and is doing a little better. I can relate.

Anyhow, her experience led me to wonder how one distinguishes between real revelation and delusional stuff like this. The folks who believe in the “tent city” movement or the Salem Relief Mine are convinced that they have had the truth revealed to them, whereas most of us think they’re just a tad off.

Extremes can be found, obviously, such as the infamous Lafferty brothers who killed their sister-in-law and her infant daughter because they were sure that God wanted them dead. But I wonder how you distinguish this from the episode in the Book of Mormon when Nephi kills an inebriated Laban in order to obtain the brass plates. Both the Laffertys and Nephi said that God guided them. Who is right? Or are they both right? Or both wrong?

Spiritual experience seems to be such a subjective experience, doesn’t it? I’ve known Catholics who told me that they had spiritual experiences leading them to the path they have taken, just as a Calvinist I know told me of a very powerful experience he had leading him to Calvinism. And most Mormons will tell you that they have received a “spiritual witness” to the truth of Mormonism.

It makes me wonder why God would tell us to pray for guidance if He is going to give us different answers.

[_Mister Scratch]

Today I was talking to a believing Mormon who told me that his mother-in-law had been having revelations about food storage and emergency preparedness and the imminent Second Coming of Jesus. She was adamant that the Holy Ghost was warning her of terrible things to come. At some point, she became convinced that enemies (apparently the government) were monitoring her movements, and to thwart them she got rid of her cell phones and credit cards and anything else that could be used to track her movements.

You should have told her that her efforts were pointless, since the SCMC will find her anyways.

As to your actual question: No. There is no way to tell the difference. We cannot hold God accountable for anything, so even if He did play a role in someone's actions, the full mantle of blame must rest on that someone, and that someone alone.

[_moksha]

I have suspected there is a link between bi-polar illness and prophesy throughout history. Does that
equate to those with such a condition being more susceptable to promptings of the spirit or even the
voice of God? Only your own belief structure would allow you to answer one way or another.

Of course for apologists it might not be a belief structure, but rather the patterned response of denial
that would influence their answer.

[_Bond...James Bond]

I feel like I'm missing out. Tons of mental illness and no revelations or visions.

[_karl61]

Some times I have full Broadway type musicals in my dreams with everyone singing in harmony. Recently I had a real interesting one about some sorority girls. It was kind of pornafide but everyone was still singing; with me in the lead. Oh, I'm flying in the dreams too.

After spending forty six years on this earth ( and taking geodon each night for the last three years), I think that most mental illness is like a car out of control. Being back in a twelve step program, reading the literature, listening to other people's shares, I believe it all has to do with fear. I wasn't really prepared for bullys in life. There were the ones across the street, the ones at church, at school and the one in the home I read about another one in the Old Testament. Home and Church should be a place where you can escape and take time out to plan how to deal with the bullys. But when there is no escape you can go crazy. When there is only criticism and shame you can go crazy. When I was 18 I would basically whisper, would stiffen up if someone passed me, and was a follower.

I shared the other day in a twelve step program about one day where everyone was reading a paragraph from a book and passing it around, I read a paragraph and passed the book on but as the book was approaching I thought how this is the first time since my excommunication at age 19 where they wanted me to be part of a spiritual program. They also assigned me to read "how it works". I got to participate.

I guess I'm rambling but I wish in the last thirty years that I showed a little courage. I should have learned courage at home. You should never have to exercise courage inside the home because that is where you get the example so then likely you will not learn it . Some have other ways to learn it. I know it took courage to go into the stake president about things that were just starting to occur in my life - but by doing that I received a traumatizing blow to my mind and spirt by a high council. Being told to read Spencer Kimballs book Miracle of Forgiveness - which said the excommunicant is in a far worse position then if he had never heard about the church.

I strongly believe that I am coming out of a fog that began at age 16. You never see it coming. It just happens. Then you are in. The only way out is honesty and courage and a lot of grace.

[_beastie]

The only way out is honesty and courage and a lot of grace.

This is so, so true. And I applaud the courage of ANY person who is brave enough to confront mental illness and learn how to control and/or overcome it.

In regards to the connection between mental illness and religious visions, there is definitely a strong correlation between bipolar and religious visions. Not all forms of bipolar include hallucinations, but they can occur in some forms of bipolar at either the manic or depressive extreme. They are commonly religious in origin. People with bipolar also tend to be very creative and can be very charming and articulate, as well.

I think the extremes in brain function (or dysfunction) can also teach us something about how the "normal" brain works. Clearly our brains are wired to created extremely convincing religious hallucinations in states of dysfunction. So is it possible that the "normal" brain is also likewise wired, only to a less extreme degree? I think so. This does not mean that religion is a dysfunction, per se, the way Dawkins claims. I think it is highly likely that these religious inclinations have been helpful in terms of our ancestors' survival and reproductive rates, so, in a way, it is "normal" to be so wired. But that doesn't mean these religious persuasions necessarily have anything to do with accurate perceptions of the external world.

I'm reading a very interesting book right now about how the brain is wired in a way that is highly conducive to thinking errors. It's called Kluge, if anyone is interested in the brain like I am.

[_truth dancer]

I'm reading a very interesting book right now about how the brain is wired in a way that is highly conducive to thinking errors. It's called Kluge, if anyone is interested in the brain like I am.

I read Kluge a few months ago... I loved it. The chapter on belief was interesting no?

I'm currently reading, The Brain that Changes Itself. I'm LOVING IT.

For some time now I have been really interested in how some people can release belief while others cannot. In other words, we know, at least to a degree how beliefs form but I wondered how these beliefs can be unwired so to speak. While some folks become true believers, others can remove belief or change belief, why is that?

In TBTCI, it addresses this phenomenon and provides interesting research on how we can unwire and rewire our brains.

VERY cool!

~dancer~

[_Inconceivable]

Anyhow, her experience led me to wonder how one distinguishes between real revelation and delusional stuff like this.

It makes me wonder why God would tell us to pray for guidance if He is going to give us different answers.

Runtu,

It may seem as strange as yet another bad theory, but maybe each of these people are receiving revelations. I seriously don't think it is the One God (if there even is one).

Think of all the accounts of those that relate their Near Death Experience. Nearly all relate the presence of loved ones that are very close yet beyond the veil. Do they ever mention that those that have passed on are perfect? I don't recall ever coming across that.

Perhaps these lingering loved ones (as well intentioned as they may be) are the ones conveying these divergent messages - and they are just as nutty or sane as they were when they lived.

I've had some crazy dreams - revelations that were so clear yet so so wrong reasoned. I've had some that proved to be dead on. But I'll tell you, I've had some colorful relatives that have passed on..

oh well.

[_beastie]

I read Kluge a few months ago... I loved it. The chapter on belief was interesting no?

I'm currently reading, The Brain that Changes Itself. I'm LOVING IT.

For some time now I have been really interested in how some people can release belief while others cannot. In other words, we know, at least to a degree how beliefs form but I wondered how these beliefs can be unwired so to speak. While some folks become true believers, others can remove belief or change belief, why is that?

In TBTCI, it addresses this phenomenon and provides interesting research on how we can unwire and rewire our brains.

I'm in the middle of the belief chapter, and it's fascinating. I'll have to put TBTCI on my list, because why some people can release beliefs and others can't has intrigued me for a while, and is part of the reason I became interested in apologists.