Robert Millet's New Book

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_solomarineris
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cinepro, did they kick you out too?

Post by _solomarineris »

"cinepro"]I think "Holding Fast" is better than the original title:


You seem to read this book. Does he give any "Meat" in his book?
I have to hand it to him; he's a very skilled debater, uses Straw man, red herrings, ad hominems
ad absurdium and tops it brillantly; "Steer him (investigator) to the Question he should asked in the first place".
No question, the man is brilliant to lead the sheep.
_Seven
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Post by _Seven »

cinepro wrote:I think "Holding Fast" is better than the original title:

"Holding Back to the Tide with a Teaspoon: Dealing with Doubts in the Latter Days"

It must be really difficult to write one of these books. I mean, you can't be too specific or you'll end up cataloging all the reasons people should leave the Church, and someone who just doubted based on one single thing will suddenly find themselves with many more reasons.

"Chapter 1: What to do if you're doubting because of Polygamy

Chapter 2: What to do if you're doubting based on the Book of Abraham

Chapter 3: What to do if you're doubting based on Joseph Smith's treasure seeking and unusual translation method

etc."



Ahh, but those aren't the most common issues that critics & doubters have with the church. ;)

from http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700241594,00.html
Peterson says one of the most common issues he addresses is the attempt to discredit the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. While the old notion that they were dishonest or insane has "pretty much gone out the window," Peterson said, the modern argument contends the witnesses were unable to distinguish fantasy from reality. Not likely, says Peterson, who finds it difficult to believe that individuals who spend their time in air-conditioned offices staring at computer screens have a better grasp of reality than those who spent their days laboring on farms.

Another issue critics often use to attack the church is "human deification," or the LDS doctrine that individuals can become like God. Peterson points out that the anti-Mormon film "The God Makers" ridiculed the church for teaching "wildly blasphemous doctrine." However, Peterson says the concept, called "theosis" in scholarly literature, is "common across early Christianity."

"It turns out, we're not the ones with the problem on that issue," he said. "Our critics are. We win."

Peterson finds humor in some attempts to discount Mormonism. For instance, some have suggested the use of the word "adieu" at the end of the Book of Jacob discredits the Book of Mormon, because the French language did not exist at the time the account takes place.

"There's English in the Book of Mormon, too," Peterson said. "This is a translation. That probably seems to be the single dumbest argument I encounter."
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

That's taking strawmannery to such an extreme that there needs to be another term for it altogether.

Strawgiant?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

I'm thinking he could come up with a series:

Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt is Scientology
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in Jehovah Witness
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in Catholicism
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in Islam
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in Krishna
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in the Fundamental Latter Days
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in Ralianism
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in the People's Temple
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in Evangelism

Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc,....

The methods one would use to hold fast to a particular belief are exactly the same methods to hold onto any faith based belief:

Expand the paradigm, don't question, have faith, trust in your leaders (apologists?), immerse yourself in your particular organization, devote your time, money, and energy to your religion, hang around other like minded individuals, remain faithful even if there are questions, read your religious texts continuously, pary to remain a believer, hold fear in your mind and heart of the consequences of disbelief, discuss your testimony often, demonstrate your faithfulness and devotion to others, etc. etc.

There are people the world over losing belief in their particular religion/cult/belief system, the LDS believer is no different than anyone else.

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_The Dude
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Post by _The Dude »

truth dancer wrote:I'm thinking he could come up with a series:

Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt is Scientology
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in Jehovah Witness
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in Catholicism
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in Islam
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in Krishna
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in the Fundamental Latter Days
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in Ralianism
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in the People's Temple
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in Evangelism

Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc,....


Holding Fast: Dealing with Constipation in the Latter Days
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

Peterson says one of the most common issues he addresses is the attempt to discredit the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. While the old notion that they were dishonest or insane has "pretty much gone out the window," Peterson said, the modern argument contends the witnesses were unable to distinguish fantasy from reality. Not likely, says Peterson, who finds it difficult to believe that individuals who spend their time in air-conditioned offices staring at computer screens have a better grasp of reality than those who spent their days laboring on farms.


Wow. What a refutation! Farmers have a better grasp on reality than a person in an air-conditioned office staring at a computer screen. That must be true in the broadest sense possible! ZING! This reminds me of Mitt Romney saying that he could not imagine anything worse than polygamy. Evidently, there is an epidemic of imagination failure in the LDS Church. Ironic, when you think of it, since the founder of the LDS Church surely had one of the most fecund imaginations around!
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Trevor
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Post by _Trevor »

Here's the image the title Holding Fast conjures in my mind, when thinking in this context:

Image
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_cinepro
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Post by _cinepro »

Boaz & Lidia wrote:How so?

Perhaps the attempt of Millet and those of his apologetic authoring ilk is to merely retain members such as you have been retained?

You are a fine example of a member full of doubt, cynicism, and tithing. Just keep paying tithes and allowing your children to be brainwashed by the leaders which you trust.


Nice try, but a little wide of the mark. My continued attendance isn't related to any apologetic argument (and in many ways is in spite of many apologetic arguments). If Millet were to focus on people of my disposition, it wouldn't be a book about "Holding Fast", it would be a book arguing for all the other reasons to continue attending even if your doubts won't go away. It would be something along the lines of "The Baby and the Bathwater: Keeping the Good after Throwing Out the False and Untrue Beliefs and Traditions of the Church"

But I don't think Millet or any author published by Deseret could ever acknowledge that people could find themselves happily lukewarm in the gospel, so I'm not holding my breath.
_John Larsen
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Post by _John Larsen »

truth dancer wrote:I'm thinking he could come up with a series:

Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt is Scientology
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in Jehovah Witness
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in Catholicism
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in Islam
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in Krishna
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in the Fundamental Latter Days
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in Ralianism
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in the People's Temple
Holding Fast: Dealing with Doubt in Evangelism

Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc,....

The methods one would use to hold fast to a particular belief are exactly the same methods to hold onto any faith based belief:

Expand the paradigm, don't question, have faith, trust in your leaders (apologists?), immerse yourself in your particular organization, devote your time, money, and energy to your religion, hang around other like minded individuals, remain faithful even if there are questions, read your religious texts continuously, pary to remain a believer, hold fear in your mind and heart of the consequences of disbelief, discuss your testimony often, demonstrate your faithfulness and devotion to others, etc. etc.

There are people the world over losing belief in their particular religion/cult/belief system, the LDS believer is no different than anyone else.

~dancer~


The best thing is he would only have to change a couple of words in the script to write the other volumes. Mostly proper nouns.
_Boaz & Lidia
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Post by _Boaz & Lidia »

cinepro wrote:
Boaz & Lidia wrote:How so?

Perhaps the attempt of Millet and those of his apologetic authoring ilk is to merely retain members such as you have been retained?

You are a fine example of a member full of doubt, cynicism, and tithing. Just keep paying tithes and allowing your children to be brainwashed by the leaders which you trust.


Nice try, but a little wide of the mark. My continued attendance isn't related to any apologetic argument (and in many ways is in spite of many apologetic arguments). If Millet were to focus on people of my disposition, it wouldn't be a book about "Holding Fast", it would be a book arguing for all the other reasons to continue attending even if your doubts won't go away. It would be something along the lines of "The Baby and the Bathwater: Keeping the Good after Throwing Out the False and Untrue Beliefs and Traditions of the Church"

But I don't think Millet or any author published by Deseret could ever acknowledge that people could find themselves happily lukewarm in the gospel, so I'm not holding my breath.
At the end of the month, LDS Inc does not give a rodents rear end whether you are happy being lukewarm, ice cold, or boiling hot about their club. All they care about is your continued 10% of your income and allowing your children to be brainwashed into thinking they are part of something important and special enough to carry into their income earning and therefore tithe paying adulthood.

You are a good member cinepro.
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