Hill Cumorah

[Guest]

I think I need to understand a little better why faithful LDSers would take the word of a BYU professor, or some other Mormon apologist over the revelation of a prophet when it comes to the location of the Hill Cumorah? For example, we have from official LDS sources a small sampling:

http://www.hillcumorah.org/cumorah.aspx

Hill Cumorah is the most notable of many hills, or drumlins, in New York State's Finger Lakes region. The hill figures prominently in events that led to the organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

In A.D. 421, Moroni, the last survivor of a great civilization that had inhabited the Americas since about 600 B.C., buried in this hill a set of gold plates on which was recorded the history of his people. In 1827, Moroni returned as an angel and delivered the plates to Joseph Smith, who translated them and published them as the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

http://www.LDS.org/placestovisit/locati ... -1,00.html

At the visitors' center, you can learn about a group of people who left Jerusalem about 600 B.C. and were guided to what is now the American continent. A history of this people, written on gold plates, was deposited in the Hill Cumorah in approximately A.D. 421 by Moroni, the last survivor of his civilization. In 1827, Moroni returned as an angel and delivered the gold plates to Joseph Smith, who translated them. We now have the record as the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.
---------------------------------------
And the UTLM packages some prophetic and authoritative comments by Mormon prophets, Apostles, and General Authorities, etc... http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/cumorah.htm

---------------------------------------

Can any faithful LDSer shed some light on this for me?

[_Daniel Peterson]

I think I need to understand a little better why faithful LDSers would take the word of a BYU professor, or some other Mormon apologist over the revelation of a prophet when it comes to the location of the Hill Cumorah?

They wouldn't.

I don't.

[_antishock8]

Ok. So Mr. Peterson unequivocally believes the Hill Cumorah, as described in the Book of Mormon is the same one located in upstate New York, as described by his church.

[_Jason Bourne]

I think I need to understand a little better why faithful LDSers would take the word of a BYU professor, or some other Mormon apologist over the revelation of a prophet when it comes to the location of the Hill Cumorah? For example, we have from official LDS sources a small sampling:

http://www.hillcumorah.org/cumorah.aspx

Hill Cumorah is the most notable of many hills, or drumlins, in New York State's Finger Lakes region. The hill figures prominently in events that led to the organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

In A.D. 421, Moroni, the last survivor of a great civilization that had inhabited the Americas since about 600 B.C., buried in this hill a set of gold plates on which was recorded the history of his people. In 1827, Moroni returned as an angel and delivered the plates to Joseph Smith, who translated them and published them as the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

http://www.LDS.org/placestovisit/locati ... -1,00.html

At the visitors' center, you can learn about a group of people who left Jerusalem about 600 B.C. and were guided to what is now the American continent. A history of this people, written on gold plates, was deposited in the Hill Cumorah in approximately A.D. 421 by Moroni, the last survivor of his civilization. In 1827, Moroni returned as an angel and delivered the gold plates to Joseph Smith, who translated them. We now have the record as the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.
---------------------------------------
And the UTLM packages some prophetic and authoritative comments by Mormon prophets, Apostles, and General Authorities, etc... http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/cumorah.htm

---------------------------------------

Can any faithful LDSer shed some light on this for me?

Not an official church web site. also it does not say the last battle was there. Only that Moroni put the plates there, He could have traveled a long way from another area with another hill called Cumorah.

[_Wheat]

I think I need to understand a little better why faithful LDSers would take the word of a BYU professor, or some other Mormon apologist over the revelation of a prophet when it comes to the location of the Hill Cumorah? For example, we have from official LDS sources a small sampling:

http://www.hillcumorah.org/cumorah.aspx

Hill Cumorah is the most notable of many hills, or drumlins, in New York State's Finger Lakes region. The hill figures prominently in events that led to the organization of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

In A.D. 421, Moroni, the last survivor of a great civilization that had inhabited the Americas since about 600 B.C., buried in this hill a set of gold plates on which was recorded the history of his people. In 1827, Moroni returned as an angel and delivered the plates to Joseph Smith, who translated them and published them as the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

http://www.LDS.org/placestovisit/locati ... -1,00.html

At the visitors' center, you can learn about a group of people who left Jerusalem about 600 B.C. and were guided to what is now the American continent. A history of this people, written on gold plates, was deposited in the Hill Cumorah in approximately A.D. 421 by Moroni, the last survivor of his civilization. In 1827, Moroni returned as an angel and delivered the gold plates to Joseph Smith, who translated them. We now have the record as the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.
---------------------------------------
And the UTLM packages some prophetic and authoritative comments by Mormon prophets, Apostles, and General Authorities, etc... http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/cumorah.htm

---------------------------------------

Can any faithful LDSer shed some light on this for me?

Either you smoke lots of pot during the course ofthe day, or you're just plain stupid. I suspect it's a combination of both.

[_christopher]

also it does not say the last battle was there. Only that Moroni put the plates there, He could have traveled a long way from another area with another hill called Cumorah.

I don't think so Jason.

Mormon 6:2 ( And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah , and there we could give them battle. )



"The great and last battle, in which several hundred thousand Nephites perished was on the hill Cumorah, the same hill from which the plates were taken by Joseph Smith, the boy about whom I spoke to you the other evening." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Feb. 11, 1872 Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, pg. 331)


"We visited the Hill Cumorah and were accorded the courtesy of going thereon by the wife of Mr. George Sampson, a brother of Admiral Walmart. Sampson, who before his death owned the property.....We were delighted to be there. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill."(Elder George Albert Smith, Conference Report, April 1906, p.56)


"These records were carried by Ether from the hill Ramah, afterwards called Cumorah, where the Jaredites were destroyed, as well as the Nephites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, May 18, 1873 Journal of Discourses Vol. 16, pg. 50

"Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, Aug. 25, 1878 Journal of Discourses Vol. 20, pg. 62)


"Finally, they became so utterly wicked, so fully ripened for destruction, that one branch of the nation, called the Nephites, gathered their entire people around the hill Cumorah, in the State of New York , in Ontario County; and the Lamanites, the opposite army, gathered by millions in the same region. The two nations were four years in gathering their forces, during which no fighting took place; but at the end of that time, having marshalled all their hosts, the fighting commenced, the Lamanites coming upon the Nephites, and destroying all of them, except a very few, who had previously deserted over to the Lamanites." (Talk given by Apostle Orson Pratt, April 6, 1874 Journal of Discourses Vol. 17, pg. 24)


Here's a good one jason

"The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his' son, Moroni. We know positively that it was in this hill that Moroni deposited the abridgment made by his father, and his own abridgment of the record of the Jaredites, and that it was from this hill that Joseph Smith obtained possession of them. " (President Anthony W. Ivins, Conference Report, April 1928-Morning Session)


"Cumorah, the artificial hill of north America, is well calculated to stand in this generation, as a monument of marvelous works and wonders. Around that mount died millions of the Jaredites; yea, there ended one of the greatest nations of this earth. In that day, her inhabitants spread from sea to sea, and enjoyed national greatness and glory, nearly fifteen hundred years. -- That people forsook the Lord and died in wickedness. There, too, fell the Nephites, after they had forgotten the Lord that bought them. There slept the records of age after age, for hundreds of years, even until the time of the Lord." (The Latter-day Saints' Messenger and Advocate, Vol.2, No.2, p.221)

"The hill, which was known by one division of the ancient peoples as Cumorah, by another as Ramah, is situated near Palmyra in the State of New York ." (Apostle James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith , chapter 14)


"It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." Mormon adds: "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites."

"It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

"Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history...." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation , Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.)

"In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation .



"This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites , flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400. Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place, and in the same manner as did the Jaredites’" (Talk given by President Marion G. Romney in General Conference, October 4, 1975, Ensign Nov. 1975 pg. 35)


"Both the Nephite and Jaredite civilizations fought their final great wars of extinction at and near the Hill Cumorah (or Ramah as the Jaredites termed it), which hill is located between Palmyra and Manchester in the western part of the State of New York.

"Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery and many of the early brethren, who were familiar with all the circumstances attending the coming forth of the Book of Mormon in this dispensation, have left us a pointed testimony as to the identity and location of Cumorah or Ramah."(Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, page 174-175, Bookcraft 1966)


"This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples, the Nephites and the Jaredites, on the self same battle site, with the same 'hill' marking the axis of military movements. By the Nephites this 'hill' was called the 'Hill Cumorah,' by the Jaredites the 'Hill Ramah'; it was that same 'hill,' in which the Nephite records were deposited by Mormon and Moroni, and from which Joseph Smith obtained the Book of Mormon, therefore the 'Mormon Hill,' of today—since the coming forth of the Book of Mormon—near Palmyra, New York. (B.H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, p.277)

"According to the Book of Mormon the Hill Cumorah of the Nephites--the Ramah of the Jaredites--must be regarded as a natural monument overlooking ancient and extensive battle fields. Around it early in the sixth century B.C., the Jaredites were destroyed. Here, also, a thousand years later, at the dose of the fourth century A. D., the Nephites met with practical annihilation in a battle which, whether judged by the importance of the changes it wrought in the affairs of one of the world's continents, or the number slain,a ranks as one of the world's great battles. In view of these Book of Mormon facts one would naturally expect to find some evidences in this section of the country for such wonderful historical events. Here one has a right to expect the evidences of military fortifications; for, though a thousand years had elapsed between the destruction of the Nephites and the discovery of America by the Europeans, still some military monuments would doubtless survive that length of time." (B.H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God, Vol.3, Ch.34, p.67)


"One of the most noted places in ancient American history was the land in which was situated the hill known to the Jaredites as Ramah and to the Nephites as Cumorah. In its vicinity two great races were exterminated; for it was there that the last battles were fought in the history of both peoples. There also the sacred records of the Nephites found their final resting place." (Elder George Reynolds, The Story of the Book of Mormon, Ch.69, p.325)



I think AS8 is right on, Jason. How many apostles and prophets and others in general conference and other place for years and years have to be wrong before some will start to question them?


Chris <><

[_beastie]

I can tell you how they get around it. They say it's not "doctrine", and as long as it's not "doctrine" and people won't be excommunicated for teaching something different, then it doesn't matter what past prophets and apostles taught, over the pulpit, functioning in their callings, praying for inspiration, and speaking in the name of Jesus Christ.

See, God apparently doesn't really care what kind of incorrect nonsense his prophets and apostles teach to the members, over the pulpit, functioning in their callings, praying for inspiration, and speaking in the name of Jesus Christ, as long as it's not "doctrine".

[_Ray A]

The following was written by a Mormon hoping to prove that the Hill Cumorah was in New York. Quoting Joseph Fielding Smith:

"Within recent years there has arisen among certain students of the Book of Mormon a theory to the effect that within the period covered by the Book of Mormon, the Nephites and Lamanites were confined almost entirely within the borders of the territory comprising Central America and the southern portion of Mexico—the isthmus of Tehauntepec probably being the "narrow neck" of land spoken of in the Book of Mormon rather than the isthmus of Panama."

"This theory is founded upon the assumption that it was impossible for the colony of Lehi's to multiply and fill the hemisphere within the limits of 1,000 years, or from the coming of Lehi from Jerusalem to the time of the destruction of the Nephites at the Hill Cumorah. Moreover, they claim that the story in the Book of Mormon of the migrations, building of cities, and the wars and contentions, preclude the possibility of the people spreading over great distances such as we find within the borders of North and South America...."

LOCALE OF CUMORAH, RAMAH, AND RIPLIANCUM. This modernistic theory of necessity, in order to be consistent, must place the waters of Ripliancum and the Hill Cumorah some place within the restricted territory of Central America, notwithstanding the teachings of the Church to the contrary for upwards of 100 years. Because of this theory some members of the Church have become confused and greatly disturbed in their faith in the Book of Mormon. It is for this reason that evidence is here presented to show that it is not only possible that these places could be located as the Church has held during the past century, but that in very deed such is the case. It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." Mormon adds: "And it came to pass that we did march forth to the land of Cumorah, and we did pitch our tents round about the hill Cumorah; and it was in a land of many waters, rivers, and fountains; and here we had hope to gain advantage over the Lamanites."
EARLY BRETHREN LOCATE CUMORAH IN WESTERN NEW YORK. It must be conceded that this description fits perfectly the land of Cumorah in New York, as it has been known since the visitation of Moroni to the Prophet Joseph Smith, for the hill is in the proximity of the Great Lakes and also in the land of many rivers and fountains. Moreover, the Prophet Joseph Smith himself is on record, definitely declaring the present hill called Cumorah to be the exact hill spoken of in the Book of Mormon.

Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery. Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history....

NEPHITE AND JAREDITE WARS IN WESTERN NEW YORK. In the face of this evidence coming from the Prophet Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, and David Whitmer, we cannot say that the Nephites and Lamanites did not possess the territory of the United States and that the Hill Cumorah i [sic] America. Neither can we say that the great struggle which resulted in the destruction of the Nephites took place in Central America. If Zelph, a righteous man, was fighting under a great prophet-general in the last battles between the Nephites and Lamanites; if that great prophet-general was known from the Rocky Mountains to 'the Hill Cumorah or eastern sea,' then some of those battles, and evidently the final battles did take place within the borders of what is now the United States....

CUMORAH ONCE SITE OF CARNAGE AND DESTRUCTION. As I stood upon the summit of the Hill Cumorah, in the midst of a vast multitude, only a few of whom belonged to the Church, I tried to picture the scenes of former days. Here were assembled vast armies filled with bitterness and bent on destruction....

IMPORTANCE OF CUMORAH UNKNOWN TO WORLD. . . ."Here it was that Moroni, commanded by the Lord, hid up the sacred records of his people. Here it was. 1,400 years later, that he, then a resurrected being, came to Joseph Smith and committed these same records to the young man's care. At the time of the Prophet's first visit to the hill, it was covered with trees; today (1923) it is stripped and bare, save for the grass which grows abundantly. " (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, Bookcraft, 1956, p.232-43.)

The only problem is, as Sorenson said, it's Mesoamerica or nowhere.

[_Wheat]

Maybe both sides are right. It's possible, you know. The Book of Mormon says that the Nephites were *running* from the Lamanites for four years prior to the final battles. They couldn't have gone south, since the Lamanites had come from there and swept everyhting in front of them. So they had to go north. And it says they were constantly on the move. In four years, they could have gone quite far.

I do think that it is incorrect for many of the pro-LDS apologists to insist that the text of the Book of Mormon will only allow for a small geographic area. I see many indications of long travels. Espcially at the time when it talks about migrations to the north that went to an *exceedingly great distance* and came to large bodies of water and rivers. Maybe the Nephites _ at the end _ simply followed the course of those earlier migrations looking for people to join their ranks and help defned themselves agains tthe Lamanites?

[_antishock8]

The hillcumorah.org isn't an official Church website?

Edit: And wait a minute. Isn't the original premise of this thread proved by someone like Wheat, who calls me stupid, and then proceeds to provide an example of exactly what asked??