Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:What is his background in terms of research into Mountain Meadows Massacre?

What's yours?

You can read about him here:

http://www.history.ucla.edu/

Evidently, Oxford University Press thought his pre-publication opinion on the manuscript worth seeking.
_beastie
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Re: Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _beastie »

What's yours?

You can read about him here:

http://www.history.ucla.edu/

Evidently, Oxford University Press thought his pre-publication opinion on the manuscript worth seeking.


I'd already read about him. We both know the answer to the question.

While it may be useful for publishing companies to seek distinguished jacket blurbs, it's not quite the same thing as having someone who has researched MMM review the book, is it? Simply being a distinguished historian wouldn't automatically qualify him with the prerequisite background material to judge if serious omissions have occurred.

I'm certainly not qualified to give an academic review of the book. I'm just offering my analysis on an internet board. But there are undoubtedly other historians who have studied the topic adequately. I can think of one name immediately, but you've already disqualified him.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_dblagent007
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Re: Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _dblagent007 »

rcrocket wrote:The problem with Bagley is that he made many many wrong conclusions by relying upon sources that would only put Young in a bad light.

A good friend of Bagley's at the time agrees with Crocket's analysis:

http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3840#comment-222930

Ardis Parshall wrote:
an earlier post wrote:I read Bagley when it came out, and found it a balanced view. In the book, he really doesn’t promote his view that Brigham was deeply involved. He is more dedicated to exploring what the sources say and what we really know. He makes some conjectures, but identifies them as such.


BiV, you’ve made this claim on two threads this morning. While I don’t relish a fight with either you or Will today, it would be irresponsible of me not to challenge your statements in the interest of other T&S readers who may not have the background to do so.

I too read Blood of the Prophets when it came out (actually, before it came out, in prepublication form). At that time, Will and I were close friends and participated in the same email discussion groups. I defended him when his statements were misrepresented both online and in an MHA discussion (incurring the wrath of Daniel C. Peterson’s acid keyboard in doing so), and I furnished Will with a few relevant documents. In turn, he encouraged and praised and helped me get started in business, introducing me to everyone and boosting my confidence by speaking as though I had already achieved what he and I only hoped I could achieve. We have serious philosophical differences now and Will no longer considers me a friend, but when BOTP was published, we cared about each other’s good opinion and we were genuine friends.

I say that not as a name-dropper but as background to this: The first time I saw Will after reading his book, he eagerly asked my reaction. When I hesitated and tried to be noncommittal, he pinned my shoulders against the wall (we were in the hallway at Sunstone) and insisted I answer – “At least you have to admit I was fair!” or words to that effect. He was so sincere, and honestly believed he had been fair, and I hated to give him my own candid evaluation that he had been anything but fair. I know from the look on his face when I replied that he intended to be and believed he had been fair – and I use know with the same gravity I use when I say “I know life continues after death.”

Nevertheless, BOTP is not fair or balanced; Will fully lays the blame for the massacre at Brigham Young’s feet, just as he explicitly stated in the program last night; he follows only those sources that tend (sometimes through their ambiguity) to support his view, and he makes countless unsubstantiated allegations without identifying them as such. Because he is one of the most talented storytellers writing in Mormon history today, and because he so beautifully weaves quotations into his narrative, you have the impression that he is using sources appropriately and in context, but I submit that greater familiarity with the sources demonstrates that he uses sources so selectively as to be (even if unintentionally) deceptive.

Three examples:

In his writing, and in his appearance last night, Will states that nothing, absolutely nothing, happened in Utah without Brigham Young’s knowledge. In the case of MMM, Will doesn’t limit that to Brigham Young’s post-MMM awareness of what happened; last night he stated that MMM was a deliberate demonstration to the nation that Brigham Young controlled overland travel. Will believes and repeatedly writes/states that nothing happened in Utah without Brigham Young’s knowledge, meaning prior knowledge and approval and direction. Besides that being so patently foolish to anyone who considers time and distance and human nature, it is contradicted by the records. Oh, sure, you can find any number of documents dictated by Brigham Young directing the minutest details of this or that project. To anyone who has read Brigham Young’s fuller record – and I unhesitatingly include myself in that number – this view of “not a sparrow falls but Brigham Young directed it” is demonstrably false. Letter after letter after letter after letter flows out of Brigham Young’s office, pleading and urging and scolding and attempting to drag his wilful and independent flock into following his advice. His sermons – too often cherry-picked for their isolated colorful and inflammatory lines and not studied in full as his congregations heard them – attempt to persuade his people to do something other than what they have been doing. If Brigham Young controlled everything in the absolute way Will insists, there would be no need for the pleading and persuasion shown in the documentary sources, and no need to chastise anyone after the fact.

BOTP is full of contradictions – Will writes whatever supports his thesis, without regard for how one bit of “evidence” contradicts another. He writes, for example, as part of his effort to paint Mormons as merciless, depraved people, that illegitimate children were “plentiful” in southern Utah (without supporting citation, by the way); he also lists fornication and adultery as crimes falling under the penalty in his explication of blood atonement. He does not explain how fornication or adultery resulting in so many illegitimate children coexists with the terror of being blood-atoned for such crimes. Will writes – and stated last night – that Mountain Meadows was ordered by Brigham Young to threaten the United States by demonstrating his power to close transcontinental travel. I have struggled to reconcile the contradictory ideas of massacre-as-demonstration-of-power with massacre-must-be-concealed. The massacre could only serve as a warning if Mormon direction were publicized, not concealed. And Will can’t backpeddle by saying Brigham Young concealed it only when he realized it was going to work against him because the United States was more powerful than he was, because Will documents the coverup as beginning within hours after the massacre.

The most egregious problem is the one that has been thoroughly aired in published reviews. Will’s most powerful “proof” of Brigham Young’s direction of the massacre – a proof that was championed last night by Judith Freeman – is Dimick Huntington’s journal, supposedly showing that Brigham Young “encouraged his Indian allies to attack the Fancher Party to make clear to the nation the cost of war with the Mormons.” Forget that nothing in the relevant Huntington entry speaks of killing people, only of taking cattle. Forget that Huntington doesn’t mention either the Fancher train or any other company as brought to the attention of the Indians (yet the Fancher train, according to Will, is specifically targeted because of the presence of Arkansans who had been accused, Will claims, by Parley P. Pratt’s widow of PPP’s assassination). Forget all those gaps in the chain, and realize only that Will misread – unintentionally, I have no doubt, and caused only because he saw what he expected to see rather than what was actually there – the entry in Dimick Huntington’s journal. Instead of the Indians agreeing to go and “raise [allies]” as Will printed it, Huntington writes that the Indians stated they were going to “raise grain.” Far from agreeing to attack the emigrants, as Will needs the entry to say in order to support his claim, the Indians refuse to participate in any trouble, and instead proclaim that they are going home to watch the grass grow. [Later printings correct “allies” to “grain” but the brackets are inexplicably retained.]

Blood of the Prophets is a beautifully written book, well arranged, with flowing, fascinating prose. Will takes you to the scene of the massacre and forces you to see and feel the horror of it all. He follows the lives of the surviving children and justly evokes pity and compassion. The book has won any number of awards from many kinds of organizations because of its prose, and because people who don’t know any better assume it is a fearless, praiseworthy recitation of historical truth. There is a reason, however, why it has not won awards from the organizations and historians most familiar with relevant Utah history and the sources that must be considered in any rational, balanced examination of the massacre – only those who are familiar with the full spectrum of Mormon-related documents, not the cherry-picked out-of-context excerpts favored by so many historians, realize how badly BOTP fails as history.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

I've been hearing Will Bagley's opinion of Brigham Young and the Mountain Meadows Massacre for many years now, and have even been hearing his criticisms of Massacre at Mountain Meadows since roughly the year 2000. I have no doubt that, if we're even slightly interested, we'll all be well aware, in detail, of his opinion of the book. He won't be silent, and he'll have plenty of venues in which to express his views.

I've been told that I'm afraid to let a non-Mormon historian express his or her opinion of Massacre at Mountain Meadows in the FARMS Review. That claim is false.

But now the goal posts are being shifted a bit, and I find that I won't satisfy my critics here unless and until I provide space in my pages for Will Bagley and/or Mike Quinn (and, I'm guessing, not even then).

Oh well. Life's hard, and then you die.
_beastie
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Re: Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _beastie »

I'm going to respond more later, but quickly want to respond to one item in particular:

I have struggled to reconcile the contradictory ideas of massacre-as-demonstration-of-power with massacre-must-be-concealed.


You must be kidding.

Young never intended the threat to be "Mormons will attack and kill emigrant trains". The threat was that INDIANS would attack and kill emigrant trains. And that was never covered up - in fact, that was trumpeted as THE cause of MMM. What was covered up was Mormon involvement, and that was never in BY's interest to promote.

This is such an obvious flaw in the argument you shared here it's hard to take the rest seriously.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_beastie
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Re: Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _beastie »

I've been hearing Will Bagley's opinion of Brigham Young and the Mountain Meadows Massacre for many years now, and have even been hearing his criticisms of Massacre at Mountain Meadows since roughly the year 2000. I have no doubt that, if we're even slightly interested, we'll all be well aware, in detail, of his opinion of the book. He won't be silent, and he'll have plenty of venues in which to express his views.

I've been told that I'm afraid to let a non-Mormon historian express his or her opinion of Massacre at Mountain Meadows in the FARMS Review. That claim is false.

But now the goal posts are being shifted a bit, and I find that I won't satisfy my critics here unless and until I provide space in my pages for Will Bagley and/or Mike Quinn (and, I'm guessing, not even then).

Oh well. Life's hard, and then you die.


Just out of curiosity - are you also intending to choose LDS reviewers who have no background in MMM?

It does strike me odd to not choose individuals who have some background familiarity in the topic. For you, that's an unreasonable goal. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:Just out of curiosity - are you also intending to choose LDS reviewers who have no background in MMM?

It does strike me odd to not choose individuals who have some background familiarity in the topic. For you, that's an unreasonable goal. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

So who, exactly, do you have in mind?

Do you really insist that it has to be Will Bagley, in the FARMS Review, or nothing? (What specific Mountain Meadows Massacre expertise has Mike Quinn demonstrated?)

Although contacting Juanita Brooks is a theoretical possibility for me, that doesn't seem to be a viable option for you.

The Mormon historians I've got writing for me thus far have published on the Mountain Meadows Massacre specifically, in the one case, and, in the other, very extensively on nineteenth-century Mormon and Utah history.

You obviously don't think that a Pulitzer-Prize-winning American historian counts (though Oxford University Press appears to have thought otherwise). So who is it that you demand that I publish on the subject?




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_beastie
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Re: Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _beastie »

So who, exactly, do you have in mind?

Do you really insist that it has to be Will Bagley, in the FARMS Review, or nothing? (What specific Mountain Meadows Massacre expertise has Mike Quinn demonstrated?)

Although contacting Juanita Brooks is a theoretical possibility for me, that doesn't seem to be a viable option for you.

The Mormon historians I've got writing for me thus far have published on the Mountain Meadows Massacre specifically, in the one case, and, in the other, very extensively on nineteenth-century Mormon and Utah history.

You obviously don't think that a Pulitzer-Prize-winning American historian counts (though Oxford University Press appears to have thought otherwise). So who is it that you demand that I publish on the subject?


I have no idea. I'm not in the field.

I guess it's naïve of me to expect that people writing a fairly detailed review of a text would have enough background experience in the topic to give a well-informed opinion.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Re: Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _beastie »

The most egregious problem is the one that has been thoroughly aired in published reviews. Will’s most powerful “proof” of Brigham Young’s direction of the massacre – a proof that was championed last night by Judith Freeman – is Dimick Huntington’s journal, supposedly showing that Brigham Young “encouraged his Indian allies to attack the Fancher Party to make clear to the nation the cost of war with the Mormons.” Forget that nothing in the relevant Huntington entry speaks of killing people, only of taking cattle. Forget that Huntington doesn’t mention either the Fancher train or any other company as brought to the attention of the Indians (yet the Fancher train, according to Will, is specifically targeted because of the presence of Arkansans who had been accused, Will claims, by Parley P. Pratt’s widow of PPP’s assassination). Forget all those gaps in the chain, and realize only that Will misread – unintentionally, I have no doubt, and caused only because he saw what he expected to see rather than what was actually there – the entry in Dimick Huntington’s journal. Instead of the Indians agreeing to go and “raise [allies]” as Will printed it, Huntington writes that the Indians stated they were going to “raise grain.” Far from agreeing to attack the emigrants, as Will needs the entry to say in order to support his claim, the Indians refuse to participate in any trouble, and instead proclaim that they are going home to watch the grass grow. [Later printings correct “allies” to “grain” but the brackets are inexplicably retained.]



I see. So BY gave the cattle to the Indians, while threatening the feds that if he no longer restrained the Indians, they would start attacking trains...and we're supposed to imagine Young had some nonviolent method in mind for the Indians to obtain that cattle?

Remember another citation omitted from Massacre:

He knew that this would likely result in violence. Bagley’s book provides evidence, from page 94 (fixed original typo), from Wilford Woodruff’s journal:

Even as he unleashed a new level of violence on the overland trail. Young understood the consequences of his new Indian policy. The United States was driving the Mormons to war too quickly, he told Wilford Woodruff at the end of August. The Saints had not had time to teach the Indians to not to kill women and children and “those who ought not to be killed.” Responsibility for such innocent victims would fall to American politicians, not on Mormon prophets. “The nation is determined to make us free. They are determined to drive us to defend ourselves & become independent,” he said. “[The Lord] will fight our battles & we will become an independent kingdom.” For Brigham Young, it was now the Kingdom of God or nothing.
Last edited by Tator on Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Massacre At Mountain Meadows Review

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

beastie wrote:I guess it's naïve of me to expect that people writing a fairly detailed review of a text would have enough background experience in the topic to give a well-informed opinion.

Why do you keep repeating this nonsense?

It has nothing to do with me.

Publishing on nineteenth-century Utah and Mormon history doesn't mean not publishing on nineteenth-century Utah and Mormon history.

Being a published scholar of the Mountain Meadows Massacre doesn't mean that one is not a published scholar of the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Those are the people I have lined up thus far. Why do you keep pretending that I place no value on expertise in nineteenth-century Utah and Mormon history and on the Mountain Meadows Massacre?
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