Attention Moniker & Beastie

[_marg]

Shades just locked the thread "Attention Spoil Sport and Other Interested Parties" http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8037&start=63

I believe for the reason that much of the comments on there related to pm's and chat. I was not involved in any of those.

Nothing I've said has been a function of pm's, chat or blogs. My criticism of your naïvété Moniker has been a function of what you've put out on the board.

We've had this discussion previously in this thread where I laid out some of my argument to both of you.

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6133&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=jealous&start=21

At that time Beastie you accused me of being jealous of Moniker.

You asked me my age and wrote.."Second, I think it may be relevant because it is not unusual for older women to experience some jealousy towards younger women, who are still their prime regarding sexual power."

And you wrote:

"I'm not a prude, and I've always enjoyed knowing that men find me attractive (although obviously that has tempered with age ;) But I would be frankly offended and insulted if a man said overtly sexual things to me to "show interest" - because, along with that interest, what he's showing is that he thinks you're a whore."

So apparently Beastie you think if men proposition women they are treating women as whores, whereas I'm not the one complaining about men doing so, so if anyone is showing jealousy it's you.

You appear to be again insinuating that I'm jealous, in the recently locked thread. You write:

At the same time, some females may have been jealous of the attention she was receiving, and [reference to PM goings-on deleted]. It's like middle school all over again. I didn't care for middle school the first time around, and I'm saying "No thanks" to second helpings.

I certainly haven't [reference to PM goings-on deleted], but the reason your jealously theory falls flat Beastie is I'm not saying men shouldn't show interest when women put out sexual cues.

Now in that thread I linked to I've taken some quotes from Moniker

"I admit that by not telling men I didn't appreciate things that some of the behavior escalated. I admit that my unwillingness to tell someone to stop doing something makes ME look as if I enjoyed it -- which couldn't be farther from the truth."

"About my avatars. Some of them are sexy. Some of them are NOT."

"So, should I just retreat, and stop being me? I don't know, truthfully. I am a sexual creature, and I don't hide that -- yet, it's not me seeking anything!"

So Moniker is quite aware of her responsibility in the reaction she has gotten from men. And she knows [reference to PM goings-on deleted].

I'm just telling her straight up..and not playing games with her. I'm not making any moral judgment I'm simply informing her that she needs to take responsibility for what she is complaining about from others.

[_Some Schmo]

Well, I just have to go on record and say that, marg, while I agree with much of what you have to say on other topics, in this particular instance, I have no idea what you're talking about, and think you're way off base. I have never once perceived anything Moniker/Book of Mormon has written as sexual attention seeking, and I don't think anyone who has come on to her in sexually harassing ways has a legitimate excuse for it.

I've always perceived Moniker as someone who expresses herself openly and is not sexually repressed, but I've never once felt that was an invitation to me or anyone else to openly make advances toward her. Like someone else mentioned, if there are men who think that, it's their own problem, not Mon's, and I think they should seek professional help for it (although I have little hope that they will).

[_marg]

Who was the moderator who deleted portions of my post? Everything I wrote in my post did not come from any pms, which apparently was the reason you gave for deleting them.

As an example I quoted Beastie directly from the thread just locked .."At the same time, some females may have been jealous of the attention she was receiving, and spread rumors about her. It's like middle school all over again. I didn't care for middle school the first time around, and I'm saying "No thanks" to second helpings."

There is not even a mention of pm's in Beastie's word. And to add insult to injury I'm the one having to defend myself because I am the one being attacked by Beastie, it's not Moniker being attacked. Sheesh!

[_Dr. Shades]

[MODERATOR NOTE: All right, that was a freebie. From now on, NO HINTS at anything that may or may not have transpired "behind-the-scenes" in the form of PMs, chats, etc. NOT EVEN A WHIFF. ZIP. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA.]

[_marg]

[MODERATOR NOTE: All right, that was a freebie. From now on, NO HINTS at anything that may or may not have transpired "behind-the-scenes" in the form of PMs, chats, etc. NOT EVEN A WHIFF. ZIP. ZERO. ZILCH. NADA.]

Shades my post made no references to pms. It dealt entirely with what is on the board. I have been attacked by Beastie in the thread you closed and I have a right to defend myself which you have sabatoged.

[_Dr. Shades]

Shades my post made no references to pms. It dealt entirely with what is on the board.

That's 99% true. You made hints of things that may have transpired via PMs. The rest of your post was fine, though.

I have been attacked by Beastie in the thread you closed and I have a right to defend myself which you have sabatoged.

I have sabotaged nothing. Keep talking about ONLY what you have read on the board, leave out ANYTHING that anyone may have referenced that may or may not have taken place behind-the-scenes, and you'll be fine.

The substance of your post is still 100% intact.

[_marg]

Well, I just have to go on record and say that, marg, while I agree with much of what you have to say on other topics, in this particular instance, I have no idea what you're talking about, and think you're way off base. I have never once perceived anything Moniker/Book of Mormon has written as sexual attention seeking, and I don't think anyone who has come on to her in sexually harassing ways has a legitimate excuse for it.

Well she's complaining about being sexually harassed by men. I haven't seen it myself...have you?

I've always perceived Moniker as someone who expresses herself openly and is not sexually repressed, but I've never once felt that was an invitation to me or anyone else to openly make advances toward her.

Once again I have not seen any man make any sexual advances to her on the board. I'm addressing her complaints which she has brought to the board. I did see a post by Coggins a song about Moniker however in the thread I linked to above Moniker wrote:

" I have made sexually suggestive remarks to Coggins -- 'cause he acts like an ass to me. I enjoy screwing with him. I don't mind pissing off TBM's that trumpet their supposed moral superiority in my face. I admit to that.

I do talk about sexuality, and my sexuality. Yet, interestingly enough most of my talking about sexuality has been in the last few months. Before that time I rarely spoke about it and that's when the majority of the poor behavior occurred. I also think I was emotionally vulnerable at that time and that attracted some men to me."

Like someone else mentioned, if there are men who think that, it's their own problem, not Mon's, and I think they should seek professional help for it (although I have little hope that they will).

Well Schmo you really don't know what Moniker is complaining about, or what the men said to her ..so it's a little difficult for you to assume they should seek professional help.

[_marg]

delete -- letting Schmo take over.

:) surprise surprise

[_Some Schmo]

Well, I just have to go on record and say that, marg, while I agree with much of what you have to say on other topics, in this particular instance, I have no idea what you're talking about, and think you're way off base. I have never once perceived anything Moniker/Book of Mormon has written as sexual attention seeking, and I don't think anyone who has come on to her in sexually harassing ways has a legitimate excuse for it.

Well she's complaining about being sexually harassed by men. I haven't seen it myself...have you?

Nope. But she's clearly upset, and I don't think she's making it up. She could be, but I can't think of a reasonable motive to do so, given the fact that she's not mentioning any names (at least, that I've seen).

I've always perceived Moniker as someone who expresses herself openly and is not sexually repressed, but I've never once felt that was an invitation to me or anyone else to openly make advances toward her.

Once again I have not seen any man make any sexual advances to her on the board. I'm addressing her complaints which she has brought to the board. I did see a post by Coggins a song about Moniker however in the thread I linked to above Moniker wrote:

" I have made sexually suggestive remarks to Coggins -- 'cause he acts like an ass to me. I enjoy screwing with him. I don't mind pissing off TBM's that trumpet their supposed moral superiority in my face. I admit to that.

I do talk about sexuality, and my sexuality. Yet, interestingly enough most of my talking about sexuality has been in the last few months. Before that time I rarely spoke about it and that's when the majority of the poor behavior occurred. I also think I was emotionally vulnerable at that time and that attracted some men to me."

Well, two things:

- Anyone who messes with Coggins gets an automatic pass from me. Coggins is a dipstick who's crying out to be messed with. All it means is that the person doing the messing recognizes that.

- I'm not sure if this example was supposed to demonstrate what you perceive as her "sexual invitation", but if it was, it's not a good one. Again, being open about your sexuality (or, in this actual case, simply mentioning your openness) is not the same as inviting abusive sexual advances, and neither is theorizing why men are coming on you.

Like someone else mentioned, if there are men who think that, it's their own problem, not Mon's, and I think they should seek professional help for it (although I have little hope that they will).

Well Schmo you really don't know what Moniker is complaining about, or what the men said to her ..so it's a little difficult for you to assume they should seek professional help.

Not true. I said, "if there are men who think that (being open about your sexuality is the same as inviting abusive sexual advances)" then they should seek professional help. I don't have to know the details of any particular sexual harassment to know that men who participate in it should seek help.

Whether it happened or not is a separate matter.

[_marg]

Well Schmo you really don't know what Moniker is complaining about, or what the men said to her ..so it's a little difficult for you to assume they should seek professional help.

Not true. I said, "if there are men who think that (being open about your sexuality is the same as inviting abusive sexual advances)" then they should seek professional help. I don't have to know the details of any particular sexual harassment to know that men who participate in it should seek help.

Whether it happened or not is a separate matter.

You've changed your words from the original. In your original post you didn't mention "abusive sexual advances...emphasis on abusive. So that's a relative term..just what is abusive? What is sexually abusive to one person may not be to another.

We are dealing essentially with words on a screen. As adults we can choose to ignore anyone who contacts us privately and there is no requirement to respond and engage anyone off the board.

We have to appreciate that we project an image of ourselves through what we write. If lots of people tend to respond to us in a certain manner which we do not like or it offends us, we can assume the problem lies with them (and that may very well be the case) or we can also assume it is partly or wholly our fault for the perceptions they have.

In a real life situations if someone makes an abusive sexual remark to another person which offends that person...they have choices which can be made to eliminate or diminish further abuse. They can disassociate themselves from further contact in the future, they can respond and let the other person know it's not acceptable.

In situations such as in a work environment, in which people are forced to associate and communicate with co-workers laws are needed to protect individuals from sexual harassment because individuals don't have the ability to disassociate themselves from further abusive situations without potential negative consequences such as leaving a job one doesn't want to leave.