Book of Mormon authorship project is online

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_ByronMarchant
_Emeritus
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:25 pm

Re: Book of Mormon authorship project is online

Post by _ByronMarchant »

harmony wrote:Just how many churches booted Sidney out, Uncle Dale? And why didn't they like him? I mean, it looks like they initially welcomed him, but he soon did something that really pissed them off. Do we know what that was?


Harmony,

Your question, "...how many churches booted Sidney...?" begs another one: Q: How many states booted Joseph Smith and his Mormon associates out? A: All of them.

New York, where he was convicted of being a public nuisance.

Ohio, where he committed bank fraud.

Missouri, where he and his Mormon associates became obnoxious.

Illinois, where he violated the 1st Amendment by destroying a press.

The followup question is, of course, when will Utah Mormons be required to leave there (can't be too soon to make me happy)?
_Danna

Re: Book of Mormon authorship project is online

Post by _Danna »

mikwut wrote: This isn't true. We have no other control to tell us what "flat" means in regards to the Jockers study, until we do your statement is mere speculation of what you think it would look like. First, we know from the study itself that many chapters have false attribution to particular authors - and we do not see a flat result there. Also, what does flat mean, 50% probability among the set of authors? Well we do see just that in the study in many places. There is also a hodge podge of chapters that shouldn't be attributed to certain authors but are. I do take exception with interpreting the Jockers study as having the Rigdon and Spalding signals right, I think many chapters are arbitrarily assigned to Rigdon and Spalding.

Regards, mikwut


Flat is the null hypothesis - no one tested author is more or less likely than another to be attributed authorship. "We have no other control to tell us what "flat" means in regards to the Jockers study" This is just incorrect.

No only is the distribution not flat - but there are strong patterns of author allocation in line with the Rigdon/Spaulding hypothesis.


(Edited because I engaged keyboard before brain.)
Last edited by _Danna on Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: Book of Mormon authorship project is online

Post by _harmony »

ByronMarchant wrote:
harmony wrote:Just how many churches booted Sidney out, Uncle Dale? And why didn't they like him? I mean, it looks like they initially welcomed him, but he soon did something that really pissed them off. Do we know what that was?


Harmony,

Your question, "...how many churches booted Sidney...?" begs another one: Q: How many states booted Joseph Smith and his Mormon associates out? A: All of them.

New York, where he was convicted of being a public nuisance.

Ohio, where he committed bank fraud.

Missouri, where he and his Mormon associates became obnoxious.

Illinois, where he violated the 1st Amendment by destroying a press.

The followup question is, of course, when will Utah Mormons be required to leave there (can't be too soon to make me happy)?


I'm not sure one is related to the other, Byron. But Sidney appears to have a history of wearing out his welcome, being booted from one congregation after another, writing and revising his sermons, until he connected with Joseph, where he stuck for several years (12? 14?) only to finally be booted for "scheming, plotting, secretive, underhanded, conspirator in the promotion of false religion and bogus revelations." He usually only lasted a year or two. But with Joseph, he lasted 12-14 years. Then shortly before or after Joseph died (I don't remember the monthly chronology of 1844), he lost favor again and was booted out. To me, that seems significant. And makes me wonder why? I wonder if Joseph felt he had to keep Sidney around, because Sidney knew things, and one of those things was exactly how the Book of Mormon came about.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Uncle Dale
_Emeritus
Posts: 3685
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:02 am

Re: Book of Mormon authorship project is online

Post by _Uncle Dale »

harmony wrote:
...
I'm not sure one is related to the other, Byron. But Sidney appears to have a history of wearing out his welcome... I wonder if Joseph felt he had to keep Sidney around, because Sidney knew things, and one of those things was exactly how the Book of Mormon came about.


In 1888 A. B. Deming provided a brief outline of Sidney Rigdon's career,
I've amended his chronology a little, to produce the following tabulation:


[Rigdon] was installed as pastor of First Baptist Church in Pittsburgh, January 28, 1822.
http://search.ldslibrary.com/article/view/2358490

Showed Rev. John Winter in his study Spaulding's "Manuscript Found" the same year [1822].
http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/1882PatA.htm#pg434b

Was [unofficially] suspended [by one faction of his congregation] for heresy: July 11, 1823.
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1824Grtk.htm#tract2-05c

Refused a seat in his own church, by the Redstone Baptist, Assoc., meeting there Sept. 6, 1823
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/Reds1823.htm#1823-03

[Rigdon and his faction were] expelled for heresy: October 11, 1823.
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1824Grtk.htm#tract2-05c

Engaged in tanning [in Pittsburgh] in... 1823 [and 1824].
Preached for adherents in the Court House of Pittsburgh until the summer of 1824
[Published the "3rd Epistle of Peter late in 1824]
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1824Scot.htm

Sent his family to Warren [Ohio] in the fall of 1825.
He joined them in the winter. Moved to Bainbridge, Ohio, [early in] 1826.
Preached Rev. W. Goodall's funeral sermon in Mentor in August, 1826.
...removed to Mentor in the spring of 1827.
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/CA ... 010088-2b3

According to this provisional chronology, Elder John Winter was a house guest of the Rigdon
family, at Pittsburgh, during the summer and fall of 1822. By early 1823 Elder Winter had
moved out of the Rigdon home and had aligned himself with the faction of Rigdon's Pittsburgh
congregation, which eventually succeeded in expelling Reigdon from the office of their pastor.
http://sidneyrigdon.com/1907Stan.htm#pg18a

Here is the recollection reported for Elder John Winter -- probably from the later summer, 1822:

John Winter wrote:During a portion of the time when Sidney Rigdon was pastor of the First Baptist Church in Pittsburgh,
Dr. Winter was teaching a school in the same city, and was well acquainted with Rigdon. Upon one
occasion during this period, 1822-23, Dr. Winter was in Rigdon's study, when the latter took from
his desk a large manuscript and said in substance, "A Presbyterian minister, Spaulding, whose health
had failed, brought this to the printer to see if it would pay to publish it. It is a romance of
the Bible." Dr. Winter did not read any part of it, and paid no more attention to it until after
the Book of Mormon appeared, when he heard that Mr. Spaulding's widow recognized in it the writings
of her husband....
http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/1882PatA.htm#pg434b



In the Deming chronology, we see that Rigdon "sent his family to Warren in the fall of 1825." This
makes sense, since his wife's family lived there, and that town was on the route to Rigdon's next
destination, Bainbridge township, Geauga Co., Ohio. While temporarily living in Warren, Mrs. Rigdon
would have had ample opportunity to renew her acquaintances with her relatives, including her neice,
Miss Amarilla (or Amorilla) Brooks (later Mrs. Amos Dunlap), who lived in or near Warren. Although
I have yet to uncover any documentation for the Rigdon family's move from Warren to Bainbridge, I
believe it occurred early in 1826 and that Miss Amarilla Brooks may have accompanied the Rigdons
on their journey (perhaps helping Mrs. Rigdon to care for her several children).


Once Rigdon's neice had arrived at Bainbridge, she had this experience, c. spring, 1826:

Amarilla Brooks Dunlap wrote:When I was quite a child I visited Mr. Rigdon's family. He married my aunt. They at that
time lived in Bainbridge, Ohio. During my visit Mr. Rigdon went to his bedroom and took
from a trunk which he kept locked a certain manuscript. He came out into the other room
and seated himself by the fireplace and commenced reading it. His wife at that moment
came into the room and exclaimed, 'What! you're studying that thing again?' or something
to that effect. She then added, 'I mean to burn that paper.' He said, 'No, indeed, you will
not. This will be a great thing some day!' Whenever he was reading this he was so completely
occupied that he seemed entirely unconscious of anything passing around him."
http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/1882PatA.htm#pg434e



Amarilla says that she was only visiting the Rigdons, so she evidently did not live with
them at Bainbridge for very long. If she had been acting as a helper with the Rigdon children,
that position was evidently taken over by a local girl, hired to be the Rigdon children's
nursemaid: Dencey Adeline Thompson, then 19 or 20 years of age. A report of her experience:

Dencey Adeline Thompson Henry wrote:...there was in the [Rigdon] family what is now called a "writing medium," also several others
in adjacent places [Auburn, Ohio?], and the Mormon Bible was written by two or three different
persons by an automatic power which they believed was inspiration direct from God, the same as
produced the original Jewish Bible and Christian New Testament.

[Dencey's son] believes that Sidney Rigdon furnished Joseph Smith with these manuscripts, and
that the story of the "hieroglyphics" was a fabrication to make the credulous take hold of
the mystery; that Rigdon, having learned, beyond a doubt, that the so-called dead could
communicate to the living, considered himself duly authorized by Jehovah to found a new church,
under a divine guidance similar to that of Confucius, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Swedenborg, Calvin,
Luther or Wesley, all of whom believed in and taught the ministration of spirits.
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/NW ... htm#090980




That finishes up the reports I've so far discovered from people who were inside of the Rigdon
home as lodgers. In my next posting, I'll complete my set of "secret pages" citations by giving
some less important, confirmations from various old testifiers.

Uncle Dale

ps ----> I do not share Byron's hope of seeing the Mormons expelled yet again from their "gathering"
in the Intermountain West. Each time in the past that the Mormons attempted such a "gathering," they
came into great conflict with their non-LDS neighbors. Although they were not formally expelled
from either Ohio or New York, their "gathered" presence in those states created problems for them.
In Missouri the Mormons claimed to be God's Covenant People, taking possession of the Promised Land.
That sort of gathering obviously did not set well with their Gentile neighbors. In Illinois there
were no claims of possessing a God-given latter day Canaan, but again the Mormons could not live
with their non-LDS neighbors -- there was a struggle for power in Hancock County, and the Mormons
lost that political contest and were again expelled. Utah was a different situation. At the close
of the 1857-58 "Utah War," the Mormon people and their leaders admitted insurrection and formally
accepted a Presidential pardon for their rebellion. That agreement gave them the right to remain in
Utah and adjacent areas forever -- as best I can tell.
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_AlmaBound
_Emeritus
Posts: 494
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:19 pm

Re: Book of Mormon authorship project is online

Post by _AlmaBound »

Uncle Dale wrote: Was [unofficially] suspended [by one faction of his congregation] for heresy: July 11, 1823.
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1824Grtk.htm#tract2-05c

Refused a seat in his own church, by the Redstone Baptist, Assoc., meeting there Sept. 6, 1823
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/Reds1823.htm#1823-03

[Rigdon and his faction were] expelled for heresy: October 11, 1823.
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1824Grtk.htm#tract2-05c


Please excuse my interruption here, but I thought there might be some interest in drawing a correlation within the Book of Mormon here, from an "automatic writing" standpoint, to real world events that show up in the book, though with different outcomes, and in this case, a different reason for being cast out that supresses the reason of heresy:

Alma 32:5 And they came unto Alma; and the one who was the foremost among them said unto him: Behold, what shall these my brethren do, for they are despised of all men because of their poverty, yea, and more especially by our priests; for they have cast us out of our synagogues which we have labored abundantly to build with our own hands; and they have cast us out because of our exceeding poverty; and we have no place to worship our God; and behold, what shall we do?


Dale, do you have additional information regarding the "faction" that was expelled along with Rigdon on 11 October 1823? For instance, a list of names that were expelled along with him?
_Uncle Dale
_Emeritus
Posts: 3685
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:02 am

Re: Book of Mormon authorship project is online

Post by _Uncle Dale »

AlmaBound wrote:
Alma 32:5 And they came unto Alma; and the one who was the foremost among them said unto him: Behold, what shall these my brethren do, for they are despised of all men because of their poverty, yea, and more especially by our priests; for they have cast us out of our synagogues which we have labored abundantly to build with our own hands; and they have cast us out because of our exceeding poverty; and we have no place to worship our God; and behold, what shall we do?


Very interesting that the word POVERTY is introduced. So far as I can tell, that
was a recurring theme throughout Rigdon's life. He always seemed to be
complaining that he was not getting his fair share of property -- or a decent
enough house. He complained that he had to work with his hands, when he
was entitled to a better position in society. Alexander Campbell constantly raged
against "hireling priests" and demanded that his associates not accept any
salary for their pastoral ministry. Campbell himself was rich enough to avoid
ever having to take a salary -- but Rigdon was not.

Still, the Alma quote sounds like an alibi -- like a re-construction of events, so
that an outcast preacher can take on the role of poverty-stricken victim. In a
way it reminds me of Rigdon's post-Nauvoo complaints, in which he shifted the
blame for his expulsion from the LDS, over upon minor incidents, and tended
to ignore what the Nauvoo leadership was actually accusing him of having done.

Dale, do you have additional information regarding the "faction" that was expelled along with Rigdon on 11 October 1823? For instance, a list of names that were expelled along with him?


About all I have are the Greatrake and Stanton items, previously linked here.
There is a list of the original members, at the time Rigdon was installed as the
pastor of the First Baptist Church of Pittsburgh -- and, from various other
communications, we have an idea of the identities of a few members who were
on the side AGAINST Rigdon. But who his supporters were, I know not. Rigdon
himself does not take the trouble to ever tell us. Which probably means that
they did not continue on as his supporters for very long.

In the late summer of 1823, it appears that Rigdon's few remaining followers
latched themselves onto the non-Baptist congregation led by Walter Scott, and
that the two groups were more or less united throughout 1823-25; meeting in
the Pittsburgh court house as a single band of worshippers. Elder Greatrake,
Alexander Campbell, and the Rigdon-Scott team themselves supply a few brief
glimpses into that transitory "Church of Christ," but we know little about them,
or why Rigdon and Scott left them at the end of 1825 -- or how a small remainder
of their flock eventually became the core membership of the Disciples of Christ
congregation in Pittsburgh, a few years later.

Image

If I ever find any more details, I will post them here:
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/features/campbell.htm

UD



http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/Reds1815.htm#1817-06 = Campbell's 1817 Circulating Letter
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/VA ... htm#100048 = Campbell's recollections of 1823 (1848)
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1824Cam1.htm = Campbell's Debate on Christian Baptism (1824)
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/VA ... htm#030124 = Campbell on experimental religion/revivals (1824)
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/VA ... htm#080224 = Baptism of William Church in Pittsburgh (1826)
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1824Grtk.htm#tract1 = Greatrake's first anti-Campbell pamphlet (mid 1824)
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/VA ... htm#090624 = Campbell's first reply to Greatrake (1824)
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1824Scot.htm = Scott's reply to Greatrake (1824)
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1824Grtk.htm#tract2 = Greatrake's second anti-Campbell pamphlet (late 1824)
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1825Camp.htm = Campbell's second reply to Greatrake (1825)
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1826Grtk.htm = Greatrake's Redstone Assoc. Letter (1826)
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1826Grtk.htm#1826RBap = Greatrake's third anti-Campbell pamphlet (1826)
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1826Grtk.htm#1826McCalla = M'Calla's anti-Campbell pamphlet (1826)
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1827Grtk.htm = Greatrake's Harp of Zion (1827)
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1828Grtk.htm = Greatrake's "Dialogue" with Andrew Fuller (1828)
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1827Grtk.htm#1830 = Greatrake's fourth anti-Campbell pamphlet (1830)
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1831McC1.htm = McCalla's Discussion of Christian Baptism (1831)
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/1836Grtk.htm = Greatrake's fifth anti-Campbell pamphlet (1836)
http://sidneyrigdon.com/RigdonPA.htm = Rigdon Among the Baptists - part 1
http://sidneyrigdon.com/RigdonAL.htm = Rigdon Among the Baptists - part 2
http://sidneyrigdon.com/RigdonPX.htm = Rigdon Among the Baptists - part 3
http://sidneyrigdon.com/RigdonOH.htm = Rigdon Among the Baptists - part 4
http://sidneyrigdon.com/RigdonO2.htm = Rigdon Among the Baptists - part 5
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/BaptHist.txt = BaptHist.txt
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/OhioHist.txt = OhioHist.txt
http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/Redstone.txt = Redstone.txt
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_ByronMarchant
_Emeritus
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:25 pm

Re: Book of Mormon authorship project is online

Post by _ByronMarchant »

Dale wrote:

"ps ----> I do not share Byron's hope of seeing the Mormons expelled yet again from their "gathering" in the Intermountain West. Each time in the past that the Mormons attempted such a "gathering," they came into great conflict with their non-LDS neighbors. Although they were not formally expelled from either Ohio or New York, their "gathered" presence in those states created problems for them. In Missouri the Mormons claimed to be God's Covenant People, taking possession of the Promised Land. That sort of gathering obviously did not set well with their Gentile neighbors. In Illinois there were no claims of possessing a God-given latter day Canaan, but again the Mormons could not live with their non-LDS neighbors -- there was a struggle for power in Hancock County, and the Mormons lost that political contest and were again expelled.

"Utah was a different situation. At the close of the 1857-58 "Utah War," the Mormon people and their leaders admitted insurrection and formally
accepted a Presidential pardon for their rebellion. That agreement gave them the right to remain in Utah and adjacent areas forever -- as best I can tell."

I have a not so secret ambition that the Mormons in Utah will simply cease to exist (as a viable organization there).

It is my not so secret belief that any agreement (as Dale maintains occurred in 1857-8 "Utah War"...) between the Mormons and the US Government would be an "establishment of religion" and, therefore, very possibly in violation of The First Amendment (Bill of Rights) and The United States Constitution which Utah agreed to uphold when it became a state in 1896.

When Dr. Whitsitt finished writing "Sidney Rigdon, The Real Founder of Mormonism" (1885?) and edited out of it his publication Origins of The Disciples of Christ and had that portion published in 1891, the debate over Mormon statehood (without polygamy) was well under way. Upon donating his MS to the Library of Congress (1911), Whitsitt was well aware that Utah had been a state for about 15 years and he wrote somewhere that he hoped that they (the Mormons) would be good stewards of their statehood; and I believe that may have been part of the reason behind his decision to not have his Rigdon biography published. Today we know that the Mormons have failed to be good stewards of their statehood promises (the most recent having been their political evangelizing with opposition to The Equal Rights Amendment during the 1970s and 1980s). Although we don't yet know all the details of their more recent opposition to California's Proposition 8 and whether their activities were legal or not, we certainly do with regard to The Equal Rights Amendment (their activities were clearly in violation of their 1986 promises). I will be interested in watching what, if anything, America's first black president (the father, like me, of 2 daughters) does in this regard (enforcing The US Constitution) in Utah. I will certainly support his efforts in that direction.

This thread, Book of Mormon authorship project is online, is, for me, just a continuation of what I have been about since I discovered during the 1970s that Mormonism (regarding the so-called Black Priesthood Doctrine) is a myth. Few of you participating here realize how delighted I was to discover the research of Dale, especially his bringing the work of Professor Whitsitt to my attention.

Byron
_mikwut
_Emeritus
Posts: 1605
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:20 am

Re: Book of Mormon authorship project is online

Post by _mikwut »

Danna,

You stated,

Flat is the null hypothesis - no one tested author is more or less likely than another to be attributed authorship. "We have no other control to tell us what "flat" means in regards to the Jockers study" This is just incorrect.


No it isn't. There isn't another control study to match the current one with to properly define flat. Also, no matter what authors are used more or less likely will be the results because more or less likely is the method. Your response without defining "flat" and telling me I am wrong leaves me no better educated as to what flat even means.

No only is the distribution not flat - but there are strong patterns of author allocation in line with the Rigdon/Spaulding hypothesis.


That's up for debate because the S/R theory has so many moving positions. When "the most probable author" is what is being obtained to think that results are going to look like a tie among all the authors as "flat" is simply absurd. There are also strong patterns that don't make any sense and patterns that admittedly are attributed as false. These comments aren't overly critical - there just basic concerning the state of affairs - we need more studies and controls - neither side should be critical of that.

regards, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Re: Book of Mormon authorship project is online

Post by _Jersey Girl »

How great were the Saints in number prior to Rigdon's 1830 conversion?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Uncle Dale
_Emeritus
Posts: 3685
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:02 am

Re: Book of Mormon authorship project is online

Post by _Uncle Dale »

Jersey Girl wrote:How great were the Saints in number prior to Rigdon's 1830 conversion?


These are very rough estimates -- but until somebody coms up with a better
count, I'd say they are "about right" --

Colesville area = 50 members
Waterloo area = 25 members
Palmyra area = 25 members

plus

Rigdon's followers who eventually became Mormons:

Kirtland/Mentor area = 50 members
Hiram-Mantua area, &c = 50 members

So, I'm guessing that at the time Joseph Smith moved to Ohio he had a
total of, say, 200 adult followers, plus their younger, unbaptized childrem.

See the back of Vogel's book for a list of some of the first members.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
Post Reply