2006 CHI now up on WikiLeaks ....

[_Mister Scratch]

Is it moral to put out a detailed manual that controls people's lives, and then not let them see it? Members have no way to know when the Bishop has overstepped his bounds. Many don't even know this thing exists.

Wouldn't that be weird if 100 years from now, Church members treated the CHI like we do the D&C? It could be broken up into chapters and verses, and we could study if for a year in Sunday School.

I actually think that this would be a legitimately good idea. Really, it is more useful, pragmatically speaking, to study the CHI than the Book of Mormon. The CHI tells you a lot more about how you are supposed to live a good TBM life than the Book of Mormon does. Which, of course, is terribly ironic.

[_cinepro]

I actually think that this would be a legitimately good idea. Really, it is more useful, pragmatically speaking, to study the CHI than the Book of Mormon. The CHI tells you a lot more about how you are supposed to live a good TBM life than the Book of Mormon does. Which, of course, is terribly ironic.

If anything, the lesson on "Don't get a Vasectomy without talking with your Bishop" should generate some interesting discussions.

[_Ray A]

I actually think that this would be a legitimately good idea. Really, it is more useful, pragmatically speaking, to study the CHI than the Book of Mormon. The CHI tells you a lot more about how you are supposed to live a good TBM life than the Book of Mormon does. Which, of course, is terribly ironic.

If anything, the lesson on "Don't get a Vasectomy without talking with your Bishop" should generate some interesting discussions.

You're actually not far off the mark, as I saw this happen in high council meetings back in the '80s. Our SP had "CHI chases", with all the high councilors racing to find a relevant section hinted at by the SP, followed by long discussions of the meaning and application of each section, which often generated different questions and answers.

And I wonder how many past bishops are familiar with the bishops' guide manual, which is about four or five times longer than the CHI. Not sure if they still have this. After going through both in 1980, I decided that I'd only use them in times of famine and excess of controversy. Stiff rules and regulations can sometimes be counter-productive to real life situations.

Junior cop: But that's against the law.

Senior cop: Be quiet, we are the law.

I've downloaded the CHI 2006 version, but I'll probably only be interested in some sections, especially those that outline disciplinary procedures. I'm always interested to see how that is changing.

[_bcspace]

If anything, the lesson on "Don't get a Vasectomy without talking with your Bishop" should generate some interesting discussions.

You're actually not far off the mark, as I saw this happen in high council meetings back in the '80s. Our SP had "CHI chases", with all the high councilors racing to find a relevant section hinted at by the SP, followed by long discussions of the meaning and application of each section, which often generated different questions and answers.

First of all, it doesn't say "Don't get a Vasectomy without talking with your Bishop".

Second, you've missed an important nuance. How would someone know to consult with the bishop on this matter unless they asked first or read the CHI? What if they ignorantly didn't give it a second thought and went ahead and did it anyway?

In other words, a lot of these are for people who can't govern themselves to the extent they must ask for guidance. There is no doctrine on the matter but the Church's opinion is such and such. If there was an actual doctrine about getting a vasectomy, I think it would be printed in a manual don't you?

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I'm just topping this for those who may have missed it yesterday.

[Guest]

First of all, it doesn't say "Don't get a Vasectomy without talking with your Bishop".

It says:

"The persons responsible for [the decision to get surgical sterilization] should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of their decision through prayer."

Whether or not you find my paraphrasing valid would depend on your understanding of what the word "should" means in the context of a handbook of instructions. I think I ably conveyed the meaning of the paragraph.

Second, you've missed an important nuance. How would someone know to consult with the bishop on this matter unless they asked first or read the CHI? What if they ignorantly didn't give it a second thought and went ahead and did it anyway?

Good point, and one that is discussed on a different message board.

For example, KingFolly says:

Since the Blue CHI (not sure if it's still the same color) is only for members of the Bishopric, most members don't know about this section. I had never heard of it when I got my vasectomy as a TBM and was somewhat embarrassed to read that section when being called into a bishopric later on. My BIL actually had a vasectomy scheduled and then was called as Bishop. He read the CHI immediately and cancelled the surgery. His wife was openly pissed.

Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:16 pm

Also this interesting bit of trivia:

Elective sterilization is covered by DMBA (church benefit administrators) for church employees if one of two conditions are met (1) the couple has 5 or more living children or (2) the wife is age 40 or older. Mine was pre-approved with minimal difficulty. One person thought both conditions needed to be met. When I pressed it with a supervisor it was clarified as one condition needing to be met.

Zippy
Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:52 pm

In other words, a lot of these are for people who can't govern themselves to the extent they must ask for guidance. There is no doctrine on the matter but the Church's opinion is such and such. If there was an actual doctrine about getting a vasectomy, I think it would be printed in a manual don't you?

Who said anything about "doctrine"? I was just saying that the Church recommends you talk to your bishop before getting a vasectomy. Sheesh.

[_cinepro]

Inspired by BCSpace, I now offer you two additional bits of trivia:

A search at LDS.org for "vasectomy" gives one search result.

Here it is:

We marry for eternity. We are serious about this. We become parents and bring wanted children into the world and rear and train them to righteousness.

We are aghast at the reports of young people going to surgery to limit their families and the reputed number of parents who encourage this vasectomy. Remember that the coming of the Lord approaches, and some difficult-to-answer questions will be asked by a divine Judge who will be hard to satisfy with silly explanations and rationalizations. He will judge justly, you may be sure.

President Spencer W. Kimball
October 1974 Conference
Reported in the November 1974 Ensign

Sadly, President Kimball didn't actually tell us what those "difficult-to-answer" questions were, so we can only guess...? I wonder if one of them will be "Did you talk to your bishop before getting a vasectomy?"

[_Rollo Tomasi]

In other words, a lot of these are for people who can't govern themselves to the extent they must ask for guidance. There is no doctrine on the matter but the Church's opinion is such and such. If there was an actual doctrine about getting a vasectomy, I think it would be printed in a manual don't you?

I noticed that transsexual investigators are under greater scrutiny in the new version of the CHI. In the 1998 version, a transsexual could be baptized if the mission president approved it. In the 2006 version it has to be approved by the First Presidency. One thing has stayed the same, however: a transsexual can never receive the priesthood or enter the temple.

[_bcspace]

First of all, it doesn't say "Don't get a Vasectomy without talking with your Bishop".

It says:

"The persons responsible for [the decision to get surgical sterilization] should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of their decision through prayer."

Exactly. As you can see, it doesn't say or imply that.

Who said anything about "doctrine"? I was just saying that the Church recommends you talk to your bishop before getting a vasectomy

Well, that's quite a bit different from "Don't get a Vasectomy without talking with your Bishop".

A search at LDS.org for "vasectomy" gives one search result.

Yes, I saw it too before I posted. I notice it simply speaks to the notion of selfishly limiting your family size (doctrine), vasectomy or otherwise (no doctrine).

Sadly, President Kimball didn't actually tell us what those "difficult-to-answer" questions were, so we can only guess...? I wonder if one of them will be "Did you talk to your bishop before getting a vasectomy?"

If I were a betting man or a prophet, I'd say that question will never come up based on the LDS view of how many children.

[_cinepro]

Exactly. As you can see, it doesn't say or imply that.

You're totally correct. I revise my previous comment to say:

"If anything, the lesson on "You Should Talk With Your Bishop Before Getting a Vasectomy" should generate some interesting discussions."