Who were the early Saints?

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_The Nehor
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Re: Who were the early Saints?

Post by _The Nehor »

John Larsen wrote:They came from the backwoods of New England. Palmyra of the time was still a relatively new community on the backside of the mountains. Kirtland was definitely frontier territory. Mormon missionaries never had much success in the big cities and larger communities. That is why it was Palmyra (Manchester) not Syracuse, Kirtland not Cleveland, and Independence not Kansas City


True, but they weren't the desperate on the edge of civilization. The implication that they came from those on the edge of civilization is incorrect.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_John Larsen
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Re: Who were the early Saints?

Post by _John Larsen »

The Nehor wrote:
John Larsen wrote:They came from the backwoods of New England. Palmyra of the time was still a relatively new community on the backside of the mountains. Kirtland was definitely frontier territory. Mormon missionaries never had much success in the big cities and larger communities. That is why it was Palmyra (Manchester) not Syracuse, Kirtland not Cleveland, and Independence not Kansas City


True, but they weren't the desperate on the edge of civilization. The implication that they came from those on the edge of civilization is incorrect.

I'm not exactly what you mean, but it was a frontier, earthy Church for years. They were a hard cursing, backwoods-grammar lot who expressed that common American disdain for the upper crust. The leaders were bombastic in their speech and called out everyone who disagreed with them in the slightest. They would whoop and yell, cast out devils, speak in tongues, engage in sessions of "cursing their enemies" and sometime writhe around on the floor. The missionaries would bust into other faith's church services and call out the preacher. Several meeting ended in violence including throwing people in the streets and fisticuffs.

It was a frontier church by the common understanding of the American frontier in every possible way.
_cinepro
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Re: Who were the early Saints?

Post by _cinepro »

moksha wrote:Was Bennett's most prominent display of opportunism, practicing polygamy without benefit of marriage?


In a very short time, Bennett became an Assistant President of the Church and Counselor in the First Presidency, the mayor of the city of Nauvoo, General of the Nauvoo Legion, and the chancellor of the University of Nauvoo. Joining the Church was quite an opportunity in many ways.

In fact, based on what we know of Bennett, I would say polygamy was relatively irrelevant to his overall ambitions, except to the degree that it allowed him to justify his extramarital liaisons.
_The Nehor
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Re: Who were the early Saints?

Post by _The Nehor »

John Larsen wrote:I'm not exactly what you mean, but it was a frontier, earthy Church for years. They were a hard cursing, backwoods-grammar lot who expressed that common American disdain for the upper crust. The leaders were bombastic in their speech and called out everyone who disagreed with them in the slightest. They would whoop and yell, cast out devils, speak in tongues, engage in sessions of "cursing their enemies" and sometime writhe around on the floor. The missionaries would bust into other faith's church services and call out the preacher. Several meeting ended in violence including throwing people in the streets and fisticuffs.

It was a frontier church by the common understanding of the American frontier in every possible way.


Not sure I believe this but if it's true it depresses me. I was born in the wrong era. :cry:
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_John Larsen
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Re: Who were the early Saints?

Post by _John Larsen »

The Nehor wrote:
John Larsen wrote:I'm not exactly what you mean, but it was a frontier, earthy Church for years. They were a hard cursing, backwoods-grammar lot who expressed that common American disdain for the upper crust. The leaders were bombastic in their speech and called out everyone who disagreed with them in the slightest. They would whoop and yell, cast out devils, speak in tongues, engage in sessions of "cursing their enemies" and sometime writhe around on the floor. The missionaries would bust into other faith's church services and call out the preacher. Several meeting ended in violence including throwing people in the streets and fisticuffs.

It was a frontier church by the common understanding of the American frontier in every possible way.


Not sure I believe this but if it's true it depresses me. I was born in the wrong era. :cry:


You can go look it up. It is not hard to find.
_The Nehor
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Re: Who were the early Saints?

Post by _The Nehor »

John Larsen wrote:
The Nehor wrote:Not sure I believe this but if it's true it depresses me. I was born in the wrong era. :cry:


You can go look it up. It is not hard to find.


Oh I know all that was there. I don't think it was a majority of the Church though. In Utah especially some wards were rather crazy. Good times....
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_TAK
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Re: Who were the early Saints?

Post by _TAK »

The Nehor wrote:You can go look it up. It is not hard to find.

Oh I know all that was there. I don't think it was a majority of the Church though. In Utah especially some wards were rather crazy. Good times....


Oh yea, they were real cut-ups down in So. Utah in 1857..
God has the right to create and to destroy, to make like and to kill. He can delegate this authority if he wishes to. I know that can be scary. Deal with it.
Nehor.. Nov 08, 2010


_________________
_harmony
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Re: Who were the early Saints?

Post by _harmony »

Nevo wrote:These are good questions, harmony.


Thanks. I'm not quite as poorly read as Daniel would have us all believe.

Generally speaking, most early converts were of modest means (i.e., poor). However, as Klaus Hansen points out, "though many [early Mormons], like the Smiths, were beyond the edge of successful, genteel society, they were on the whole better educated than their social or economic position might have suggested. The reason is that many of them were displaced persons whose families had known better times. An outpouring of early Mormon diaries, journals, and letters comprise a popular subliterature pointing to a high degree of literacy of a folk who for the most part made their livings as artisans and farmers" (Klaus J. Hansen, Mormonism and the American Experience [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1981], 41).


But were they more gullible than the average?

Hansen also highlights the intellectual appeal of early Mormonism, which "had an internal consistency as well as a kind of common sense rationality that set it very much apart from much of the emotionally infused, nonintellectual emphasis of antebellum American revivalism" (41). More recently, Steven Harper has noted that "the writings of many early converts attest that, at its core, Mormonism owed its persuasive quality to the empirical and revelatory blend by which it simultaneously catered to the metaphysical, rationalistic, and democratic" (Steven C. Harper, "Infallible Proofs, Both Human and Divine: The Persuasiveness of Mormonism for Early Converts," Religion and American Culture 10, no. 1 [2000]: 112).


So it is fair to say they were more apt to be starstruck by a charismatic leader? More apt to abandon the familiar in a search for an easier way?

Returning to the question of the social origins of early Mormons, a recent study has observed that "though the issue of early Mormonism and class merits further study, no evidence yet suggests that poverty was a distinguishing characteristic among the converts, British or American." The author writes: "A breakdown of the British converts’ occupations indicates that the Mormons were quite similar to the general populace of the counties from which they principally came. While the data on the early British Mormons suggest that they were principally “working class,” the data do not indicate that the converts were lower class than British society generally" (Stephen J. Fleming, "The Religious Heritage of the British Northwest and the Rise of Mormonism," Church History 77, no. 1 [2008]: 74-75).


These were the converts who came after though, right? Not the earliest converts, who joined prior to missionaries being sent out?

[qutoe]Regarding the religious origins of the first Mormons, John Brooke has argued that "Mormon converts were drawn from a peculiarly prepared people, families that often had long stood outside the mainstream of New England orthodoxy. These family histories established a cumulative experience of sectarian inclinations, supernatural practice, and continuing migration that together shaped a predisposition to Mormon conversion in the 1830s" (John L. Brooke, The Refiner's Fire: The Making of Mormon Cosmology, 1644-1844 [Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1994], 65; see also, Val D. Rust, Radical Origins: Early Mormon Converts and their Colonial Ancestors).[/quote]

So they had a history of being gullible, of following wild hare ideas?

Also interesting is the remarkable youth of the first wave of converts: "Using Davis Bitton's Guide to Mormon Diaries and Autobiographies (Provo, Utah, 1977), Marvin S. Hill has estimated that 92 percent of those converted before 1846 whose birth and conversion dates are given (211 of 229) were under 40 at the time of baptism. The median age was between 20 and 25; more than 80 percent (182) were 30 or under" (Nathan O. Hatch, The Democratization of American Christianity [New Haven: Yale University Press, 1989], 278n193).


So.. they were young.

Thanks, Nevo!
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_harmony
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Re: Who were the early Saints?

Post by _harmony »

John Larsen wrote:I'm not exactly what you mean, but it was a frontier, earthy Church for years. They were a hard cursing, backwoods-grammar lot who expressed that common American disdain for the upper crust. The leaders were bombastic in their speech and called out everyone who disagreed with them in the slightest. They would whoop and yell, cast out devils, speak in tongues, engage in sessions of "cursing their enemies" and sometime writhe around on the floor. The missionaries would bust into other faith's church services and call out the preacher. Several meeting ended in violence including throwing people in the streets and fisticuffs.

It was a frontier church by the common understanding of the American frontier in every possible way.


How would you characterise them? Were they different from their neighbors? Gullible? Visionary? Well-grounded in reality? Wishful? Wanting so badly to have something to cling to they weren't discriminating about what that was? Did economics play a part? Were they pioneers, in the economic sense, just wanting a chance to be settlers?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Nevo
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Re: Who were the early Saints?

Post by _Nevo »

harmony wrote:But were they more gullible than the average?

So it is fair to say they were more apt to be starstruck by a charismatic leader? More apt to abandon the familiar in a search for an easier way?

So they had a history of being gullible, of following wild hare ideas?

No, not at all. I was trying to argue precisely the opposite.

Early Mormon converts--at least in the US--tended to be left cold by the emotionally-charged preaching of charismatic revivalists. Among other things, they were attracted by Mormonism's appeal to reason and common sense. As Steven Harper notes, "one finds the word 'reasonable' and its relatives used frequently by writers trying to describe what it was in Mormon theology that caused conversion in them" (Harper, "Infallible Proofs," 101).

In the 1830's, when "the Enlightenment seemed to be over, and evangelical Protestantism had seized control of much of the culture," Mormonism grew rapidly by appealing to Americans [whose] approach to Christianity had been influenced by rationalism. Mormonism simultaneously satisfied both the intellectual and spiritual longings of these adherents. . . . Those who became Mormons were almost always first contemplative Bible believers who were skeptical of false prophets. They considered it reasonable that signs would follow true believers, and they held out for empirical confirmation. Dozens of primary accounts of early Mormon conversions emphasize this pattern (Harper, 103-104).

Klaus Hansen notes the apparent contradiction "to call people who believed in divining treasures in the earth, in folk magic, who believed in spirits, and accepted tales of angels, of golden plates, and sacred spectacles--as being 'rational." "And yet," he continues,

as we learn more about popular beliefs and so-called superstitions, they were frequently derived from logically consistent connections between religious belief, a specific need, and an empirical attitude toward nature. . . . [T]hese people did not tend to make the distinction that a modern, scientifically oriented world makes between the natural and the supernatural. Rather, the two merged into one. And the validity of experiences in both worlds could be verified by a kind of common sense 'Baconianism' (Hansen, Mormonism and the American Experience, 42).

Representative in many ways is schoolteacher William McLellin's conversion, which he described to relatives as follows: "I examined the book [of Mormon], the people, the preachers, the old scriptures, and from the evidences which I had before me I was bound to believe the Book of Mormon to be a divine Revelation; and the people to be christians. Consequently, I joined them" (McLellin to Beloved Relatives, August 4, 1832, in Welch and Shipps, eds., The Journals of William E. McLellin, 80; emphasis in original).
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