Who were the early Saints?

[_John Larsen]

I'm not exactly what you mean, but it was a frontier, earthy Church for years. They were a hard cursing, backwoods-grammar lot who expressed that common American disdain for the upper crust. The leaders were bombastic in their speech and called out everyone who disagreed with them in the slightest. They would whoop and yell, cast out devils, speak in tongues, engage in sessions of "cursing their enemies" and sometime writhe around on the floor. The missionaries would bust into other faith's church services and call out the preacher. Several meeting ended in violence including throwing people in the streets and fisticuffs.

It was a frontier church by the common understanding of the American frontier in every possible way.

How would you characterise them? Were they different from their neighbors? Gullible? Visionary? Well-grounded in reality? Wishful? Wanting so badly to have something to cling to they weren't discriminating about what that was? Did economics play a part? Were they pioneers, in the economic sense, just wanting a chance to be settlers?

You can compare Mormonism to all of the other weird religions that emerged at the time and it is clear that the ideas that founded Mormonism weren't unprecedented at the time. The really strange thing about Mormonism, and most facinating, is that it survived where others failed. This is probably due to the dynamics of Joseph who had an amazing ability to reinvent himself--which stayed with the Church.

[_harmony]

You can compare Mormonism to all of the other weird religions that emerged at the time and it is clear that the ideas that founded Mormonism weren't unprecedented at the time. The really strange thing about Mormonism, and most facinating, is that it survived where others failed. This is probably due to the dynamics of Joseph who had an amazing ability to reinvent himself--which stayed with the Church.

Do you think the church would have died, had Joseph lived to stand trial? And do you think at least one of the reasons it survived and eventually flourished was because they moved west?



.

[_harmony]

Early Mormon converts--at least in the US--tended to be left cold by the emotionally-charged preaching of charismatic revivalists. Among other things, they were attracted by Mormonism's appeal to reason and common sense. As Steven Harper notes, "one finds the word 'reasonable' and its relatives used frequently by writers trying to describe what it was in Mormon theology that caused conversion in them" (Harper, "Infallible Proofs," 101).

And yet it would be hard to find a more charismatic man than Joseph. I guess I'm not seeing the 'reason and common sense' you suggest. What exactly would that be? Do you have any examples from your reading?

In the 1830's, when "the Enlightenment seemed to be over, and evangelical Protestantism had seized control of much of the culture," Mormonism grew rapidly by appealing to Americans [whose] approach to Christianity had been influenced by rationalism. Mormonism simultaneously satisfied both the intellectual and spiritual longings of these adherents. . . . Those who became Mormons were almost always first contemplative Bible believers who were skeptical of false prophets. They considered it reasonable that signs would follow true believers, and they held out for empirical confirmation. Dozens of primary accounts of early Mormon conversions emphasize this pattern (Harper, 103-104).

Klaus Hansen notes the apparent contradiction "to call people who believed in divining treasures in the earth, in folk magic, who believed in spirits, and accepted tales of angels, of golden plates, and sacred spectacles--as being 'rational." "And yet," he continues,

as we learn more about popular beliefs and so-called superstitions, they were frequently derived from logically consistent connections between religious belief, a specific need, and an empirical attitude toward nature. . . . [T]hese people did not tend to make the distinction that a modern, scientifically oriented world makes between the natural and the supernatural. Rather, the two merged into one. And the validity of experiences in both worlds could be verified by a kind of common sense 'Baconianism' (Hansen, Mormonism and the American Experience, 42).

So they already had a tendency to conflate naturally occuring events and reports of the supernatural. And they gravitated to Mormonism because it validated what they already believed?

Representative in many ways is schoolteacher William McLellin's conversion, which he described to relatives as follows: "I examined the book [of Mormon], the people, the preachers, the old scriptures, and from the evidences which I had before me I was bound to believe the Book of Mormon to be a divine Revelation; and the people to be christians. Consequently, I joined them" (McLellin to Beloved Relatives, August 4, 1832, in Welch and Shipps, eds., The Journals of William E. McLellin, 80; emphasis in original).

What evidences? Does he elaborate?

[_Jersey Girl]

Who were the early Saints?

harm,

I think you should pose that question to Uncle Dale.

[_John Larsen]

You can compare Mormonism to all of the other weird religions that emerged at the time and it is clear that the ideas that founded Mormonism weren't unprecedented at the time. The really strange thing about Mormonism, and most facinating, is that it survived where others failed. This is probably due to the dynamics of Joseph who had an amazing ability to reinvent himself--which stayed with the Church.

Do you think the church would have died, had Joseph lived to stand trial? And do you think at least one of the reasons it survived and eventually flourished was because they moved west?



.

I assume that the sexual libertine activities of the leadership would have imploded the Church had Joseph been allowed to continue on his path. Joseph was also in process of deconstructing many of the core doctrines that individual's faith and testimony had been based on--much like the mass exodus of leadership pre-1838. However, an equally likely scenerio is that Joseph would have been extridited to Missiouri, tried and convicted for the attempted murder of Governor Boggs, and Young could have ascended to power in the vaccuum.

All speculation of course.

[_harmony]

I assume that the sexual libertine activities of the leadership would have imploded the Church had Joseph been allowed to continue on his path.

Yes, but his sexual activities were still hidden at that point. They would have come out with the publication of the Expositor, but at the time he died, they were still hidden.

Joseph was also in process of deconstructing many of the core doctrines that individual's faith and testimony had been based on--much like the mass exodus of leadership pre-1838.

Such as? And what happened prior to 1838?

However, an equally likely scenerio is that Joseph would have been extridited to Missiouri, tried and convicted for the attempted murder of Governor Boggs, and Young could have ascended to power in the vaccuum.

In which case, we'd be right where we are now.

This isn't really Joseph's church at all, is it? What we have today is Brigham's legacy.

[_Mercury]

As for South Park being an accurate report.....lol. You've been away too long.

Please expound on the innacuracies within the southpark episode "All About The Mormons".

[_John Larsen]

I assume that the sexual libertine activities of the leadership would have imploded the Church had Joseph been allowed to continue on his path.

Yes, but his sexual activities were still hidden at that point. They would have come out with the publication of the Expositor, but at the time he died, they were still hidden.
They were kind of hidden. When he died polygamous women, know to the world to be single, were starting to get pregnant. That would have blow the lid off of the whole thing pretty darn quickly. Also, it is well known that many, such as William Smith, John C. Bennett and Willard Richards had exploited the doctrine to gain sexual access to females clandestinely.

Joseph was also in process of deconstructing many of the core doctrines that individual's faith and testimony had been based on--much like the mass exodus of leadership pre-1838.

Such as? And what happened prior to 1838?
There are many (if not most to some degree or another). Take Universalism for example. Early writings of Joseph including the Book of Mormon and other revelations are very strictly literalistic in an interpretation of heaven and hell and a condemnation of universalist principles. By Nauvoo, Joseph had swung out far in terms of tolerance of sinners and universal salvation. Also, Joseph was very strong in promoting lay clergy that earned their wage based on their own labors. By Nauvoo he was 180 degrees in reverse of this think. Key principles of church organization and expansion of power changed. Many revelations were altered.

Much of the leadership quit, faulting Joseph. Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, the Whitmer, many of the 12...

However, an equally likely scenerio is that Joseph would have been extradited to Missiouri, tried and convicted for the attempted murder of Governor Boggs, and Young could have ascended to power in the vacuum.

In which case, we'd be right where we are now.

This isn't really Joseph's church at all, is it? What we have today is Brigham's legacy.

In many ways. But that goes for the Utah Branch. If you look at the Community of Christ, you probably have a more true vision of Joseph's legacy.