If Joseph 'saw the words in English'

[_JoetheClerk]

Joseph put his head in a hat, looked at a brown rock and the words of the Book of Mormon appeared to him in English. No excuses about horses, smelting ore for metal swords or anything else holds up if the statement is accurate.

The baloney of him choosing words he was familiar with to explain Tapirs as Horses is pure unadulterated BS. Cureloms and Cumoms was not changed to foxes and wolverines, was it?

God put the words in front of him on the rock and he read them off, or he didn't. It can't be both ways.

[_Daniel Peterson]

It's good to know that somebody here knows exactly how the process worked and precisely what its implications and ramifications are.

Because I don't.

[_The Dude]

Joseph put his head in a hat, looked at a brown rock and the words of the Book of Mormon appeared to him in English. No excuses about horses, smelting ore for metal swords or anything else holds up if the statement is accurate.

The baloney of him choosing words he was familiar with to explain Tapirs as Horses is pure unadulterated b***s***. Cureloms and Cumoms was not changed to foxes and wolverines, was it?

God put the words in front of him on the rock and he read them off, or he didn't. It can't be both ways.

Nice job! Richard Bushman couldn't have said it better.

[_Nevo]

Nice job! Richard Bushman couldn't have said it better.

Indeed. Joe's thoughtful, incisive posts are the reason I keep coming back to this board. His range, depth, and originality is really a marvel to behold.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

It's only in the church classes that teachers say the words appeared to him in English, and it did not disappear until it was correctly written down. But I don't think this is doctrine because people on MA&D say he translated it using his own words. I would believe the guys at MA&D before I would believe anything taught in church.

[_Dr. Shades]

I would believe the guys at MA&D before I would believe anything taught in church.

Although your comments were made in jest, there's no doubt in my mind that plenty of people agree with that. In practice, if not in word.

Hence the existence of Internet Mormonism.

[_GoodK]

What I have never understood - and hopefully the co-author of Echoes and Evidences of The Book of Mormon can shed some light on this - is how the word sheum can be considered a bulls eye if Joseph saw the words in English. Why would "God" choose to use one obscure Akkadian word no one understood at the time?

[_cinepro]

It's only in the church classes that teachers say the words appeared to him in English,

We should at least acknowledge the genesis of this belief:

"I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."

David Whitmer An Address to All Believers in Christ

Certainly, Whitmer never claimed to have looked at the seer stone himself, so his report is second hand. But the detail (and certainty) of his statement lead me to believe that it is based on more than just an assumption about the process.

[_antishock8]

The Puffin makes a good point with his typically scatty abrasiveness:

What was the "process" used to "bring to light" the Book of Mormon?

Where do we get the notion that Joseph Smith shoved his face in a hat looking at a peep stone?

Where do we get the notion that Joseph Smith sat the Golden Plates on a table, and dictated the "translation" to a scribe?

Where do we get the notion that Joseph Smith plagiarized someone else's text, used his imagination to fill in the blanks, and produced the book?

Answer?

We have no idea! We have no idea what the ramifications of "the process" are because no one really knows how and what he did in order to produce the Book of Mormon!!! Thank God in Heaven we have seminal thinkers like Mr. Potato Head to imbue us with further light and knowledge!

Next thing you know he'll tell us that no one can possibly know that as man is God once was, and as God is man may become! Because we have no idea how that notion came to light, and what the ramifications of such thinking could render!!

[_Danna]

It's good to know that somebody here knows exactly how the process worked and precisely what its implications and ramifications are.

Because I don't.

Hang on, what about this:

How were these plates translated? ... [S]et the scene for us, how you imagine what happened from the various accounts you've read.

The plates of the Book of Mormon were translated in a sense by Joseph Smith and in a sense not by Joseph Smith. Joseph didn't have the capacity to translate any modern or ancient language, certainly, at that time. A little bit later on he'll learn some Hebrew and some German -- not much, but a little bit. But the translation occurred by supernatural means, far beyond his capacity to do it.

There were a couple of means that were prepared for this. One was that he used an instrument that was found with the plates that was called the Urim and Thummim. This is kind of a divinatory device that goes back into Old Testament times. Actually, most of the translation was done using something called a seer stone. The seer stone is obviously something like the Urim and Thummim. It seems to be a stone that was found in the vicinity, and I can't say exactly how it would have worked. It may have been a kind of a concentrating device or a device to facilitate concentration. He would put the stone for most of the concentration period in the bottom of a hat, presumably to exclude surrounding light. Then he would put his face into the hat. It's kind of a strange image for us today, but it sort of makes sense if you think of a computer screen, I suppose: You don't want to be looking at [anything] against a bright background; it hurts your eyes. ... He would read off what he saw in the stone, apparently in passages of about 25 to 35 words. ...