The Forming of the Round Table

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_Gadianton
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The Forming of the Round Table

Post by _Gadianton »

Most of us I think would agree that Internet Mormonism predates the Internet. Acknowledging this, we might ask, when was Internet Mormonism invented? Was there a first Internet Mormon?

Certainly, there have been so-called "liberal Mormons" for some time. B.H. Roberts is a guiding light to liberal Mormons. But liberal Mormonism, if it is Internet Mormonism, is so problematically. A liberal Mormon believes in evolution as does an Internet Mormon. A liberal Mormon may even have far more radical beliefs than an Internet Mormon. For instance, a liberal Mormon might think the Book of Mormon isn't historical, yet still "true", while virtually no Internet Mormon holds this position. Internet Mormons and liberal Mormons in fact, are greatly opposed to each other generally, the former going so far as to denounce the latter as anti-Mormons.

Internet Mormons recognize a distinction between themselves and liberal Mormons. In contrast, Internet Mormons deny a distinction between themselves and Chapel Mormons. They claim, as Dr. Shades pointed out long ago in his original work on the subject, that their Internet Mormon beliefs constitute the real doctrine, and that Chapel Mormon beliefs, if they even exist at all, are cultural artifacts that never really had anything to do with Mormon Doctrine to begin with.

So Internet Mormons, like Chapel Mormons are "TBMs", whereas the consensus seems to be that liberal Mormons aren't. And while Internet Mormons have a great deal of contempt for Chapel Mormons, they seem to recognize Chapel Mormons as legitimate Mormons, and the relationship is only really strained in situations like Rodney Meldrum's where a Chapel Mormon does recognize the difference.

In the grain of the TBMness, Internet Mormons radically believe in the moral right of Mormonism to rule the world. Hence, hand in hand with Internet Mormonism usually goes their unique brand of missionary work called apologetics which sets out to empirically prove Mormonism is true.

At this point, we might say then, the first real, truly recognizable Internet Mormon(s) would be the first emperically armed apologists. Of course, we think of Hugh Nibley here. A few days ago on MAD, Dr. Peterson wrote,

Dr. Peterson wrote:[Nibley]...Among other things, he was the only really serious scholar of antiquities in the Church for much of his lifetime.

Now there are many. I believe that the succession to Nibley, if you want to think of it in those terms, is collective. Which is a very good thing.


If Nibley was like King Arthur, then the FARMS boys became the Knights at the Round Table, and the first true Internet Mormons.

The most important part of my essay puts all of this into perspective by a quote from Louis Midgley, from his recent essay on Nibley in the Review 20/2,

Midgley wrote:The other "open letter" included in this collection was addressed to "Dear Sterling" McMurrin (pp. 142—47), who back then was the leading light among cultural Mormons. Nibley concludes this stunning letter with the following candid comment: "I am stuck," he says, "with the gospel. I know perfectly well that it is true; there may be things about the Church that I find perfectly appalling—but that has nothing to do with it. I know the gospel is true" (pp. 146—47).Everyone with any sense knew exactly where Nibley stood on fundamental issues. This freed him to act as a staunch defender of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, as well as an apologist for the gospel of Jesus Christ, but also as a kind of gadfly pestering both lazy Saints and cultural Mormons alike.


Midgley clearly paints the rise of Nibley as the founding leader of what we know from Peterson's quote is his own legacy. Chapel Mormons are clearly identifiable here in Midgley's pejoratives "cultural Mormon" and "lazy Saints". Nibley is TBM, yet finds much of the church "appalling" and engages the membership, as FARMS continues to do in their reviews, with hostility and "pestering". This quote from Midgley is highly revealing, and illustrates the beginnings of Internet Mormonism and apologetics when we take into consideration other comments such as those made by professor Peterson recently about Nibley's status as the sole antiquarian of the church for decades.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Mister Scratch
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Re: The Forming of the Round Table

Post by _Mister Scratch »

A very thought-provoking post, Dr. Robbers. Certainly, Internet Mormonism had to start somewhere. It's interesting to observe that it seems to be one of the very few "splinter" sects of the LDS Church to emerge during the past 50 years or so. There is a great deal of insistence upon conformity and obedience in the Church, so it makes sense that we would see a kind of "intellectuals' rebellion" within the elite ranks.

Also, I'm very glad that you quoted that bit from Nibley, where he says that he finds certain parts of the Church "appalling." You know, Professor Peterson also often says that he "dislikes" certain aspects of Mormonism, but, interestingly, he has never (as far as I know) specifically stated what these "aspects" are. I wonder if Nibley was the same way, or if he set a precedent in that regard. Further, I wonder if this "dislike" of "certain aspects" of Mormonism is merely a rhetorical ruse of some kind. If these guys have a legit problem with the Church, then why are they so reluctant to tell us about it? Or, does their "intellectualism" require them to have *some*, *ANY* "problem"---however nebulously defined---with the Church? It is a very interesting question.
_harmony
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Re: The Forming of the Round Table

Post by _harmony »

I dislike parts of Mormonism, or rather I dislike what they represent. I sustain them, but I don't like them much.

Interesting how Nibley was a cafeteria Mormon.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_moksha
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Re: The Forming of the Round Table

Post by _moksha »

Many Mormons believe in evolution, they are just afraid to say so publically for fear of appearing like they are not of a like mind. Likewise, I suspect some internet Mormons indeed hold chapel beliefs, but do not say so on the internet fearing they would appear less credible when defending Mormonism.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Dr. Shades
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Re: The Forming of the Round Table

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Hello Gadianton,

I echo Mister Scratch when I say that your opening post was highly intersting and very thought-provoking. I'm sure it's no secret that I have been fascinated by the rise of Internet Mormonism and its contrasts with Chapel Mormonism, but I've never given the comparison between an Internet Mormon and a liberal Mormon much thought until now.

To that extent, I thought that your third and fourth paragraphs were the most prescient and apropos. So much so that there's little left for me to do other than affix the "Approved by Shades" rubber stamp.

That said, let me share a thought that hit me just now: Perhaps it's worth mentioning that an Internet Mormon will recoil in rage and horror at the suggestion that he's not part of the mainstream, whereas a liberal Mormon will proudly own up to, and wear as a badge of honor, the suggestion that he's not part of the mainstream.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_John Larsen
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Re: The Forming of the Round Table

Post by _John Larsen »

Dr. Shades wrote:Hello Gadianton,

That said, let me share a thought that hit me just now: Perhaps it's worth mentioning that an Internet Mormon will recoil in rage and horror at the suggestion that he's not part of the mainstream, whereas a liberal Mormon will proudly own up to, and wear as a badge of honor, the suggestion that he's not part of the mainstream.


I agree with this. But I find it so strange. Part of my fascination with Mopologetics is that it tends to drastically depart from the Mormonism on the streets. These guys go to Church every Sunday. They know that if they said a good portion of the stuff the spit out on the boards from the pulpits, they would get in trouble. They are fully aware of the difference, but they seem to be in a great deal of denial.
_Gadianton
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Re: The Forming of the Round Table

Post by _Gadianton »

Dr. Shades wrote:Hello Gadianton,

I echo Mister Scratch when I say that your opening post was highly intersting and very thought-provoking. I'm sure it's no secret that I have been fascinated by the rise of Internet Mormonism and its contrasts with Chapel Mormonism, but I've never given the comparison between an Internet Mormon and a liberal Mormon much thought until now.

To that extent, I thought that your third and fourth paragraphs were the most prescient and apropos. So much so that there's little left for me to do other than affix the "Approved by Shades" rubber stamp.

That said, let me share a thought that hit me just now: Perhaps it's worth mentioning that an Internet Mormon will recoil in rage and horror at the suggestion that he's not part of the mainstream, whereas a liberal Mormon will proudly own up to, and wear as a badge of honor, the suggestion that he's not part of the mainstream.


Yes Doc, that's how I see it.

That post ended up being a little clumsy because the liberal Mormon thing ended up taking on a life of its own rather that just working into the point at the end.

My original fascination came with the Migdley quote, and that fact he pretty much admits point blank that there are "Chapel Mormons".

In the future, we should say "lazy Mormons" or "cultural Mormons" as they appear to understand what that means.

In case there is any doubt about Nibley, a "lazy" Mormon would be one who doesn't spend all their free time studying the gospel in a scholarly way.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Gadianton
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:12 am

Re: The Forming of the Round Table

Post by _Gadianton »

Mister Scratch wrote:I wonder if Nibley was the same way, or if he set a precedent in that regard.


Nibley was actually pretty "bold" on the things he didn't like about the church. Nibley was basically the Mormon version of Thorstein Veblen. It does seem, per this article of Midgley's, that perhaps he had reservations in other more foundational areas which as you suggest, would evidently be secret.

To the extent that Nibley was more vocal, it's probably because he had the church by the balls. As Dr. Peterson says, he was the first serious apologist, so the church had no choice but to put up with his (odd) criticisms. But apologists abound now, any one of them are dispensible now and with the SCMC in place and the line drawn clearly by BKP, they cower in fear.

Look at it this way, we know DCP has some issues with Mormon art. Imagine if he wrote an article for the Review that was an honest critique, whe he really thinks, about the problems of Mormon art, leaving nothing out and with his signature style of sarcasm and hyperbole on full display. He'd be finished.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Danna

Re: The Forming of the Round Table

Post by _Danna »

Thought provoking. Thanks for the thread Gad
_harmony
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Re: The Forming of the Round Table

Post by _harmony »

Gadianton wrote:
Look at it this way, we know DCP has some issues with Mormon art. Imagine if he wrote an article for the Review that was an honest critique, whe he really thinks, about the problems of Mormon art, leaving nothing out and with his signature style of sarcasm and hyperbole on full display. He'd be finished.


I don't think so, because I don't think the Brethren care diddly about Mormon art. Now if Daniel was as critical of the Book of Abraham as he is about Mormon art... then you'd see some fireworks.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
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