Faith promoting lies

[_solomarineris]

Maklealan
Yes, there is 'evidence' for the Book of Mormon; evidence along the lines of evidence for Big Foot, Loch Ness Monster, alien abductions, crop circles, and so forth.
This sums it up nicely, Mak, doesn't it?
Maklealan
I guarantee you that crop circle enthusiasts are every bit as convinced about their evidence as you are about yours. The problem is, the validity of this evidence is directly and positively correlated with the emotional investment one has in it being true.
Frankly speaking Mak, I have no evidence to support any claim other than stating firmly that 100% of what you believe is crock.
You might hard to believe this but I don't have any animosity towards LDS faith in general to wish ill feelings.
I have invested nothing in it therefore I don't have any gain to see it go down.
From where I sit, the evidence you cite is no more compelling that than cited by alien abduction enthusiasts. Plus, I am 100% certain that alien abduction (or more generally alien) enthusiasts can produce eye witnesses every bit as compelling as the Book of Mormon witnesses. A lesson learned in terms of accepting eye witnesses as valid evidence of supernatural events.
Furnishing a willing witness means absolutely nothing to me, short of showing an alien spacecraft or a verifiable alien implant will not convince me of any tale they can muster.
(The argument that the witnesses to the Book of Mormon constitute compelling evidence, despite all the evidence to the contrary, can only plausibly be made in a vacuum, discounting the many thousands (and probably millions) of other eye witnesses to supernatural events that have been reported since the dawn of time. (I'm reasonably certain that Juan Diego never denied his testimony of having seen the Virgen de Guadalupe, for instance.)
I can chalk them up as Bogus or better; mass hysteria; There is nothing I see in these stories would lead me to think otherwise.
Until youare willing to show me something compelling I will remain skeptical of your claims.

[_maklelan]

Mak
Nice try MAK
If you want to deceive yourself go ahead; none of these examples constitutes as evidence,

You evidently don't know jack about evidence. Evidence does not have to be convincing or strong, but any facts that support a specific interpretation constitutes evidence (there's no "as").

in fact Erich von Daniken's or Ufologists, evidences are more credible than flimsy examples you present.

And you say that based on nothing but ignorant assertion. I'm willing to bet you couldn't intelligently discuss a single one of those pieces of evidence.

If I may ask; do you have a real job, or you sell some snake oil too for living? Are detached from reality this much to think Olmec heads might have something to do with Book of Mormon?

I'm an historian.

I guess you and I think differently when we think of "Evidence"

Yes. I think accurately, and you do not. As I explained, you conflate evidence with proof, which is common for message board armchair "scholars."

I'll show you some concrete evidence from where JosphSmith got Book of Mormon names
http://www.uwec.edu/geOGrApHY/Ivogeler/ ... -names.htm
ACTUAL PLACE NAMES Book of Mormon PLACE NAMES
*Agathe, Saint Ogath
Alma Alma
Antrim Antum
Antioch Anti-Anti
Boaz Boaz
Conner Comner
Hellam Helam
Jacobsburg Jacobugath
Kishkiminetas Kishkumen
Lehigh Lehi
Mantua Manti
Monroe Moroni
Minoa Minon
*Moraviantown Morianton
*Morin Moron
Oneida Onidah
Omer Omner
*Rama Ramah
*Ripple Lake Ripliancum, Waters of
Sodom Sidom
Shiloh Shilom
Tecumseh/Tenecum Teancum

[/quote]

What a joke. Hill Ephraim came from Saint Ephrem? What about the land of Ephraim from the Bible? Much closer spelling. Moroni came from Monroe? Lehi came from Lehigh? What about Lehi from the Bible. Anti-anti comes from Antioch? Your source is a freaking joke. Irreantum, NHM, and the dozens of Book of Mormon names not found in New York state but found in ancient Hebrew bullae and ostraca are obviously much stronger evidence than Moroni = Monroe. You'd have to scuttle off to Google just to know what bullae are, and you want me to believe you know something about this evidence? Not a chance.

[_maklelan]

And you seem to be conflating evidence with objectively valid evidence.

No, I haven't. That's purely a subjective (and totally made up) distinction.

Yes, there is 'evidence' for the Book of Mormon; evidence along the lines of evidence for Big Foot, Loch Ness Monster, alien abductions, crop circles, and so forth.

Yeah, just like there's evidence that man landed on the moon and that the Berlin Wall was torn down. The only difference is that you reject one set and not another. Of course, in any objective analysis, your personal assumptions have no bearing. Don't lecture me about evidentiary standards.

I guarantee you that crop circle enthusiasts are every bit as convinced about their evidence as you are about yours.

And conviction has nothing to do with whether or not evidence exists.

The problem is, the validity of this evidence is directly and positively correlated with the emotional investment one has in it being true.

Or that one has in it being false. That's true of all evidence, which is why that's not a legitimate reason to reject it. All evidence needs to be evaluated on its own merit.

From where I sit, the evidence you cite is no more compelling that than cited by alien abduction enthusiasts.

Whoopdie doo.

Plus, I am 100% certain that alien abduction (or more generally alien) enthusiasts can produce eye witnesses every bit as compelling as the Book of Mormon witnesses. A lesson learned in terms of accepting eye witnesses as valid evidence of supernatural events.

And this ignores the details of the nature of the Book of Mormon witnesses' testimony. Anything can be made to look alike if you squint your eyes until it gets blurry.

(The argument that the witnesses to the Book of Mormon constitute compelling evidence, despite all the evidence to the contrary, can only plausibly be made in a vacuum, discounting the many thousands (and probably millions) of other eye witnesses to supernatural events that have been reported since the dawn of time. (I'm reasonably certain that Juan Diego never denied his testimony of having seen the Virgen de Guadalupe, for instance.)

But he also never became antagonistic toward himself and tried to have himself thrown in jail or killed. Nor did his family ever beg him to deny his testimony while he lay on his deathbed, long estranged from himself. Don't waste everyone's time with this crap.

[_karl61]

Maklelan wrote:

"I'm a historian"

CFR

[_solomarineris]

Mak
Nice try MAK
If you want to deceive yourself go ahead; none of these examples constitutes as evidence,

You evidently don't know jack about evidence. Evidence does not have to be convincing or strong, but any facts that support a specific interpretation constitutes evidence (there's no "as").

in fact Erich von Daniken's or Ufologists, evidences are more credible than flimsy examples you present.

And you say that based on nothing but ignorant assertion. I'm willing to bet you couldn't intelligently discuss a single one of those pieces of evidence.

If I may ask; do you have a real job, or you sell some snake oil too for living? Are detached from reality this much to think Olmec heads might have something to do with Book of Mormon?

I'm a historian.

I guess you and I think differently when we think of "Evidence"

Yes. I think accurately, and you do not. As I explained, you conflate evidence with proof, which is common for message board armchair "scholars."

I'll show you some concrete evidence from where JosphSmith got Book of Mormon names
http://www.uwec.edu/geOGrApHY/Ivogeler/ ... -names.htm
ACTUAL PLACE NAMES Book of Mormon PLACE NAMES
*Agathe, Saint Ogath
Alma Alma
Antrim Antum
Antioch Anti-Anti
Boaz Boaz
Conner Comner
Hellam Helam
Jacobsburg Jacobugath
Kishkiminetas Kishkumen
Lehigh Lehi
Mantua Manti
Monroe Moroni
Minoa Minon
*Moraviantown Morianton
*Morin Moron
Oneida Onidah
Omer Omner
*Rama Ramah
*Ripple Lake Ripliancum, Waters of
Sodom Sidom
Shiloh Shilom
Tecumseh/Tenecum Teancum

What a joke. Hill Ephraim came from Saint Ephrem? What about the land of Ephraim from the Bible? Much closer spelling. Moroni came from Monroe? Lehi came from Lehigh? What about Lehi from the Bible. Anti-anti comes from Antioch? Your source is a freaking joke. Irreantum, NHM, and the dozens of Book of Mormon names not found in New York state but found in ancient Hebrew bullae and ostraca are obviously much stronger evidence than Moroni = Monroe. You'd have to scuttle off to Google just to know what bullae are, and you want me to believe you know something about this evidence? Not a chance.[/quote]

Damn right Mak....
It is a joke, let's reader decide, you didn't bother to check out the link, did you? All those names are local, within couple hundred miles of
where Joseph lived. It is famous Vernal Holly's work. As most of his work Joseph borrowed names conveniently.
Look at the names again; distinctly unique, you cannot fine half of them in Old Testament or New Testament.
But of course you have to strain your brain to find a correlation, which is so obvious to spot.

[_maklelan]

Damn right Mak....
It is a joke, let's reader decide, you didn't bother to check out the link, did you? All those names are local, within couple hundred miles of
where Joseph lived.

That's phenomenal, but as a theory it fails to account for five times as many Book of Mormon names that have no correlation to local names, many of which are attested only in ancient Hebrew and Aramaic onomastica. I'll say it again for the cheap seats: your source is a freaking joke.

It is famous Vernal Holly's work. As most of his work Joseph borrowed names conveniently.
Look at the names again; distinctly unique, you cannot fine half of them in Old Testament or New Testament.

Nor can you find them in the list provided by your source. You can find various degrees of similarity, but the same can be said of their similarity to biblical names. Shilom comes from Shiloh? Why not Shalem, Shelomi, or Shalim (all from the Old Testament, although so is Shiloh)? Helam comes from Hellam? Why not just from Helam, from 2 Sam 19:16? As I said before, there are dozens of other names in the Book of Mormon, like Aha and Paanchi and Pacumeni that are attested very clearly in ancient records and not in the Great Lakes Region. Similarity in <20 names is great, but when many more names only show similarity to previously unknown ancient Hebrew and Egyptian names, those <20 mean nothing. You lose.

But of course you have to strain your brain to find a correlation, which is so obvious to spot.

You mean like Moroni to Monroe? Anti-anti to Antioch? That's not a strain? Dude, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. You're just vomiting up other people's ignorance and making up facts.

I think I've wasted enough of my time on this message board.

[_Pokatator]

I just want to throw my sig line into the mix.

[_The Nehor]

God gives you nothing, you receive stuff whether you pray to a gallon of milk, Baal Zebub or Eloheim.
If Merciful God's giving to righteous were criteria then I wouldn't drive the latest model SUV or live in a big house have more money than I'd need.

An infant doesn't know his mother is giving him milk and drinks it anyways. God allows us to live and grow anyways. I'm sorry if you want me to believe in a God who blackmails people into believing. I don't.

This is the problem, Nehor; where you stand in life is leads you to humility, submission, powerlessness. You are not in charge of your life, smart guy like you should not depend on some invisible Entity to take care of his future.

I like humility and submission to God. I do not think I am powerless. I am in charge of my life. While I depend on God for my future I also know that I have to create it. God has paid humanity the supreme compliment of making them agents of change and I don't want to squander it.

You're right Nehor, you are happy, satisfied to sign your life away for an imaginary afterlife. This is the life; Here & Now , there is nothing wrong to enjoy it to the fullest.

If God tomorrow were to tell me that everyone around me had lied and that there was no afterlife, he had nothing to offer me after death, and that he was dying or being destroyed and all would fall.....I wouldn't change sides then. While I'm sure I'm not living life to the fullest (I think only one ever has) I think I'm making a decent go of it.

It is not a self worship, it is definitely not a form of religion; it is a way of life of empowering yourself that no one is more capable of
knowing you but yourself.

I empower myself by looking at my life and saying, "I choose." This is a horrifying step since you have to take responsibility for who and what you are and where you are. However, once that step is made you can take the next joyous one, "I choose differently."

[_wenglund]

The last several posts from solomarineris have made a myth out of his requested "let's get serious".

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_solomarineris]

maklelan
your source is a freaking joke.
I'll take my sources anytime over Joseph Smith' sources; it is a clear established fact the was a certified fraud in every area.
Mak
but when many more names only show similarity to previously unknown ancient Hebrew and Egyptian names, those <20 mean nothing. You lose.
This is great Mak, I lose for not believing in Deformed Egyptian, names like Kolob, Enish GoOndosh, Oliblish, Kiskumen, etc...
What was that promise again?
When Papyri was rediscovered, it was proclaimed;the staff of The Improvement Era will be looking forward with eager anticipation to additional developments in this fascinating story, and the unfolding of the meaning of the heiroglyphics and illustrations on these valuable manuscripts as they are given by Dr. Nibley in his articles.
A historian, eh? You are some special historian to promote this lie.
Mak
I think I've wasted enough of my time on this message board.
You really won't waste any time if you learn your lesson and get on with your life;
"There are no mistakes, only lessons, Growth is a process of experimentation. 'Failures" are as much a part of process as "Success". You will learn your lesson only when your action changes, otherwise you will keep repeating the same bonehead mistake, you get stuck.
I'll give you a parting measuring stake; when they (archeologists, historians) ridicule you mercilessly, it means time to investigate a little further.