Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

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_gramps
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _gramps »

AlmaBound wrote:How do you guys keep all the sock-puppets straight?


It really is difficult at times. This guy has got to be from the MADness board. One leaves, then another takes his place. It really seems like a tag-team match at times, as someone (I've now forgotten) just recently pointed out on another thread.

edited to add: It is probably someone without enough money to visit the FAIR conference. He is bummed out, so he comes here to vent. I hope he stays around for a while. Fun times.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
_AlmaBound
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _AlmaBound »

Well you're really good at it - must keep you very busy. I will say it's kind of funny to watch the arguing back and forth though, and then watching the reactions of others.
_gramps
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _gramps »

AlmaBound wrote:Well you're really good at it - must keep you very busy.


Actually, it doesn't take much time at all, once you get the hang of it. Of course, I also have an assistant to help. I'm sure it is a bad habit, and not one I would suggest someone else pick up. There are better ways to spend one's time, I'm sure. But it is also a nice diversion at the end of the day.

To each his own.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _AlmaBound »

The names are really funny, if not too obvious - "Manfredjinsinjin," ha ha! From "A Fish Called Wanda," right? Hilarious.
_gramps
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _gramps »

AlmaBound wrote:The names are really funny, if not too obvious - "Manfredjinsinjin," ha ha! From "A Fish Called Wanda," right? Hilarious.


Yep, I just watched that movie again last night, as a matter of fact. I don't like Kevin Kline in many movies, but he sure is good in this one (and of course, Sophie's Choice.)
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
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_beastie
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _beastie »

While there is very little I can add to seth’s post, who, as usual, as completely nailed the crux of the matter, I do have an additional comment;

Why me
It is impossible to judge what a prophet should be and say since we have very little comparisons available. For example, we know very little about the prophets in the old testament. What we do know is included in a few pages of their lives. I certainly don't think that they lived isolated lives away from the population. I am sure that they were activiely communicating with relatives and friends on a very human level and most of this communication had very little to do with god, but it did have something to do with life.

Since we have very little comparison available, it is near impossible to make a comment on what a prophet should be. Likewise for the new testament. We know very little about the apostles of old but I am sure that they were very human with their families and friends. Were they always in constant touch with god? I doubt it. They were basically just living: eating and drinking and having a life. And of course doing their calling. Not much different from today I am sure.


Ah, but we do have a comparison – we can compare the expectations of the prophet versus the expectations of the member who is being asked to evaluate the claims of the prophet to discern the difference between the prophet’s opinion and the mind of the Lord. The following expectations are based on internet defenders of the faith, of course, and not regular members, who would probably disagree with the internet defenders of the faith on some important points.

1) Expectations of the prophet: The prophet will pray for revelation before addressing the body of the church in the name of JC while functioning in his role as prophet. The prophet may receive revelation and be able to discern between his own opinion and the mind of the Lord while preparing the talk, but while giving the talk, the prophet may start to ramble and inadvertently insert his own opinions along with the mind of the Lord. The Holy Ghost may not intervene and warn the prophet, through a prompting, not to do so, because God doesn’t “hold our hand” all the times.
2) Expectations of the listening members: The members will, with 100% reliability if they are worthy and sincere, be able to pray and receive the guidance of the Holy Ghost that will enable them to discern the difference between the prophet’s own opinion and the mind of the Lord. In addition, the Holy Ghost can and does frequently intervene in the members’ life through sometimes unrequested promptings in the course of one’s day. For example, missionaries in the middle of teaching an investigator commonly will feel sudden promptings from the Holy Ghost to say this, or not say that.

Compare the two sets of expectations. It is clear that the bar is far lower for the prophet than it is for the individual members.

And that, of course, was the entire point of the linked article.


Manfred
First of all, in your stupidity you clearly misunderstood me to be advocating the ’god-holding-my-hand’ mentality, as demonstrated by your words directly proceeding your second quotation of yourself above, which you tactfully omitted: "I think it’s more than a bit amusing that you suggest I need god to hold my hand when you are the one who needs to believe in a god; I don’t."


You are incorrect. Schmo did not say or insinuate that you advocate “god-holding-my-hand” mentality. Schmo clearly said that you made a bizarre leap from “God shouldn’t confuse me” to “God has to hold my hand at every moment of every day”.

That doesn’t mean you believe God should hold your hand. It means you can’t tell the difference between saying “God shouldn’t confuse me” and “God should hold my hand.”

You’ll probably easily understand the difference if we take God out of the equation, and use a mere mortal, a grade-school teacher, although others have already tried this. Saying that teachers should not confuse their students by teaching them 2 + 2 = 5 one day, 6 another day, and 4 the next day is not the same as saying the teacher should hold her student’s hand every step of the way in figuring out 2 + 2.

Secondly, my understanding and reiteration of your expectations of what would constitute a God who refrains from confusing His creations can be demonstrated to be valid: The entire exchange that you cited above stemmed from your insistence that prophet’s must necessarily be continuous mouth-pieces for God at the expense of being able to express any opinions of their own. When I countered that such would be an overprotective god, you gave a response that included the following quotation which immediately followed your second citation of yourself that you provided above, which you also conveniently omitted: "Do you have any kids? Do you go out of your way to confuse them? Is that good parenting? Is it possible to desire and encourage that your kids to think and grow without actively confusing them, or is that too much hand-holding?"


You know, this is why I take pains to add the phrase “while addressing the body of the church in the name of Jesus Christ while functioning in his role as prophet” in this conversation. It is a pain to type, over and over, but I have learned through many years of this type of conversation that believers almost inevitably try to create a straw-man by pretending critics are saying that:

prophets must necessarily be continuous mouth-pieces for God at the expense of being able to express any opinions of their own


No, this is not what critics are saying. Prophets are quite free to have and express their own opinions whenever they want. They just are not free to do so while addressing the body of the church, in the name of Jesus Christ, while functioning in his role as prophet – because freely mixing his own opinions in with the “mind of the Lord” clearly gives members the erroneous impression that his opinions are, in fact, the mind of the Lord.

It’s like having a job – you can do and say things in your private life that would be inappropriate to say and do while functioning at your job.

The entire crux of this matter is not that prophets aren’t supposed to have opinions and express them: the crux of the matter is that prophets do not seem able to discern between their own opinions and the mind of the Lord. And yet members are expected to do so. Right.
Last edited by Tator on Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_harmony
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _harmony »

I wonder what would happen, if the rank and file of the church actually did what the prophet said was required... built their own personal relationship with God. That would kinda make the prophet just the guy who runs the business of the church. No prophecy required, because the members were already getting it straight from the source. No adulation, no perks, no more payment than any stake president.

Hmmmm. No wonder we don't get that message from the pulpit in conference.
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_Some Schmo
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _Some Schmo »

Manfredjinsinjin wrote: Perhaps it was your intent to be as facetious here as I was, only far less brazenly so. If not, then you’re every bit as much of a moron as you suppose that I am more beyond.

I guess you'll never know, will you? You might make an assumption which makes you feel comfortable and call it knowledge (since that's what Mormons do), but you'll never really know.

Manfredjinsinjin wrote:
Some Schmo wrote: Crap-laden drivel? Have you read your own rubbish? Maybe reading your own stuff has helped lower your tolerance (just speculating here).

Your speculations are ill-founded and wholly inaccurate. My demeanor has rather been shaped by having experienced most of life’s major tragedies all in a few short years, and has ultimately resulted in a lack of patience for the type of nonsense which you seem to be so fond of.

Well, that's fair. You like a kind of nonsense that’s different from the kind I like. I get it. To each their own.

Manfredjinsinjin wrote: Feeling proud of yourself? I’ll fix that...

First of all, in your stupidity you clearly misunderstood me to be advocating the ’god-holding-my-hand’ mentality, as demonstrated by your words directly proceeding your second quotation of yourself above, which you tactfully omitted: "I think it’s more than a bit amusing that you suggest I need god to hold my hand when you are the one who needs to believe in a god; I don’t."

Are you really this stupid? Really? (Wow, this is going to be fun). How does implying that I need god to hold my hand the same as advocating the ’god-holding-my-hand’ mentality? You don't see the difference there?

Manfredjinsinjin wrote: Secondly, my understanding and reiteration of your expectations of what would constitute a God who refrains from confusing His creations can be demonstrated to be valid: The entire exchange that you cited above stemmed from your insistence that prophet’s must necessarily be continuous mouth-pieces for God at the expense of being able to express any opinions of their own.

No, you're wrong about that too. I said they had to speak for god when they're speaking as an authority for the church. I was pretty specific about that. They can express whatever they hell they want on their own time.

Manfredjinsinjin wrote: When I countered that such would be an overprotective god, you gave a response that included the following quotation which immediately followed your second citation of yourself that you provided above, which you also conveniently omitted: "Do you have any kids? Do you go out of your way to confuse them? Is that good parenting? Is it possible to desire and encourage that your kids to think and grow without actively confusing them, or is that too much hand-holding?"

Do you have any kids, Schmo? If so, and provided that the thoughts which you express here are any indicator of your child-rearing skills, then I fear for their upbringing as they are doomed to live sheltered and/or controlled youths. Because in your mind if God doesn’t just give everyone all of the answers as opposed to letting them think for themselves and live with some uncertainties, then He’s supposedly "actively confusing them."

Well, you don't need to fear for my children. I don’t go out of my way to confuse them. I think that’s dysfunctional behavior. How you seem to equate “not actively confusing them” with “being overprotective” is beyond me. I guess what you’re telling me is that you’re a dick with your kids. Heaven forbid you’re overprotective! Right?

Manfredjinsinjin wrote:And let’s not forget that the whole point of all of this is that you built a false-dichotomy concerning God’s purported dealings with people within the scope of the function of prophets. Thus the argument still stands.

False dichotomy? You mean the prophets either speak for god or they don't? I'm not seeing a third option here that doesn't involve some incredibly dubious rationalization. Looks like your good at that.

Some Schmo wrote: Oh, because you need to believe in black-holes, antimatter, etc., in order to be happy? I feel for you, but my belief in all of the above isn’t based on what I consider to bring me joy and comfort.

Now I know you're full of s***. But that's ok; most people seem to delude themselves in this way. I don't happen to be in denial about the fact that what I believe does give me comfort.

Manfredjinsinjin wrote: That is manifestly what you think. If you think that Mormons (and presumably people of other religious persuasions which include belief in one or more gods) are all "idiotic," then you clearly take some sort of comfort in how smart you suppose your atheist self to be. Typical.

Please point me to the quote where I say all Mormons/religious people are idiotic. I'd be very interested in that.

Of course, if I mention there are idiotic Mormons, that must mean I think they're all idiotic, right? Because that's what happens when your tribe is persecuted. Boo hoo, and all that.

Some Schmo wrote: Thanks for the welcome. I’m glad that I’m here with the prospect of continuing to make fun of you.

Please do. I really do enjoy it when someone thinks they're embarrassing me. I look forward to continuing to make fun of you too.

This might be the start of a beautiful relationship.

_
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Some Schmo
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _Some Schmo »

I just realized that I posted some of the same ideas beastie did in her last post, although she expressed them better than I did. I should have read her post first before responding.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_AlmaBound
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _AlmaBound »

gramps wrote:Yep, I just watched that movie again last night, as a matter of fact. I don't like Kevin Kline in many movies, but he sure is good in this one (and of course, Sophie's Choice.)


Sometimes the spelling errors are too blatant, and the cultural references. You know, just as a point for feedback.
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