Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

[_wenglund]

Except the church doesn't teach that salvation comes through only these things. There are a whole host of ordinances and rituals and supplemental commandments that are required to be saved.

I am sorry, but you are more than a little confused, Scottie. Those things that I listed (i.e. becoming like Christ and growing to a fulness of joy and love) aren't part of the means to salvation, but rather the epitomy of salvation and exaltation. The ordinances and rituals and commandments and even the WoW are all intended to enable our development towards those ends.

Lets start with the WoW, which I seriously doubt was inspired by God. Drinking coffee in Mormonism will most definitely keep you out of the Celestial Kingdom. Do you believe that the inspiration to make this a temple requirement was from God, or could it be the opinion of a fallible man?

That's just it, Scottie. You are asking the wrong question--a question that nit-picks in a way that misses my point, thus confirming it. The question that those who have an accurate grasp of the intents and purpose of the gospel may well ask is: "Will living the WoW help enable me to become the very best person possible (like Christ) and increase my chances for attaining a fulness of joy and love one with another?".

Those who fail to get this, are vulnerable to loss of faith (as repeatedly confirmed by many of the former believers on this board), while those who do get it, are positioned for spiritual success. The choice is yours.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_beastie]

I am sorry, but you are more than a little confused, Scottie. Those things that I listed (i.e. becoming like Christ and growing to a fulness of joy and love) aren't part of the means to salvation, but rather the epitomy of salvation and exaltation. The ordinances and rituals and commandments and even the WoW are all intended to enable our development towards those ends.

It's a game of Mother-May-I - which is appropriate, because the Mormon God is inordinately fond of Mother-May-I as well. If you don't phrase things in the certain way that God - or wade -deems appropriate, then you're out.

Talk about nit-picking. Does or does not drinking coffee keep one out of the Celestial Kingdom? Yes, it does. Now, one can talk about WHY that is - perhaps refusing to follow all God's commandments, even the ones that don't make sense - indicates the lack of the type of personality and faith required for the Celestial Kingdom - but Scottie's point remains. Drinking coffee will keep one out of the Celestial Kingdom.

That's just it, Scottie. You are asking the wrong question--a question that nit-picks in a way that misses my point, thus confirming it. The question that those who have an accurate grasp of the intents and purpose of the gospel may well ask is: "Will living the WoW help enable me to become the very best person possible (like Christ) and increase my chances for attaining a fulness of joy and love one with another?".

Those who fail to get this, are vulnerable to loss of faith (as repeatedly confirmed by many of the former believers on this board), while those who do get it, are positioned for spiritual success. The choice is yours.

Yes, Scottie, the choice is yours. You should be able to 'choose' to believe that, for example, God taught Joseph Smith how to find the gold plates and translate them by having him use a peep stone to dig for slippery buried treasure as a youth. You can 'choose' to believe that God wanted Joseph Smith to practice polgyamy sooooo very badly that he sent an angel with a sword to ensure it. You can 'choose' to believe that it makes sense that God allows the prophet to intermix his own opinion with the mind of the LORD while addressing the body of the church, in the name of Jesus Christ, while functioning in his role as prophet, while expecting members to be able to use the same spirit of discernment that failed the prophet in the first place. You can 'choose' to believe that God thought prompting Brigham Young to NOT teach Adam/God would constitute God being "over-protective" and "holding our hands". You can 'choose' to believe that the Holy Ghost refused to prompt past prophets to NOT teach racist, obnoxious things about African-Americans because to do so would be to be "over-protective" and "holding our hands"... but you have to 'choose' to believe that this same God who abhors being over-protective and holding our hands still inspired the prophet to tell members how many earrings to wear.

It's easy, Scottie. You can choose to believe. Just close your eyes tight and repeat "I DO believe in spooks, I do, I do, I do, I DO believe in spooks"... whoops, substitute LDS church for spooks, and you'll have it. And don't forget to ignore the man behind the curtain. It will also help to turn off the rational part of your mind while contemplating these things.

In case you have any doubt this will work, just ask Wayne Bent's followers, who also 'choose' to believe that God ordered Wayne to 'marry' his son's, and another man's wife, and God ordered Wayne to lay naked with underage girls.

[_Sethbag]

You forgot one, Beastie. While you are using "the Spirit" to discern whether the Prophet was speaking his own opinion that he thinks is from God, or if he is really speaking God's will, please remember that if the voices in your head tell you to kill someone, then you'd better do it, or you fail the test.

[_dblagent007]

In case you have any doubt this will work, just ask Wayne Bent's followers, who also 'choose' to believe that God ordered Wayne to 'marry' his son's, and another man's wife, and God ordered Wayne to lay naked with underage girls.

National Geographic produced a documentary about Wayne Bent. It can viewed in its entirety here:
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/c ... ult-1.html

The documentary is fascinating. Bent prophesied the end of the world on 31 October 2007. It didn't happen. He also didn't lose many, if any, followers because of it. I still don't understand that one.

Bent is also commanded by God to sleep with other people's wives. He was reluctant to do it, but God forced him to the floor of his double-wide, which was the moment he knew he would have to do it.

Another fascinating aspect of Bent is that he claims he does not control his followers. He, in essence, teaches them correct principles and lets them govern themselves. When his son said he could not understand why God required him to "consumate" with the son's wife, Bent replied that his son needed to take it up with God, not Bent.

There is a second documentary (probably available on NatGeo's website, but I didn't search) that covers Bent's trial. It also shows how Bent's cult treats apostates.

Crazy, crazy stuff.

[_beastie]

You forgot one, Beastie. While you are using "the Spirit" to discern whether the Prophet was speaking his own opinion that he thinks is from God, or if he is really speaking God's will, please remember that if the voices in your head tell you to kill someone, then you'd better do it, or you fail the test.

Right, even – or especially – if it’s your own son.

The documentary is fascinating. Bent prophesied the end of the world on 31 October 2007. It didn't happen. He also didn't lose many, if any, followers because of it. I still don't understand that one.

Bent is also commanded by God to sleep with other people's wives. He was reluctant to do it, but God forced him to the floor of his double-wide, which was the moment he knew he would have to do it.

Bent’s group really is fascinating. I saw one disturbing documentary about it, as well (not sure if it’s the same one, I may watch yours later tonight) in which Bent’s son spoke about his father “marrying” his wife (later he claimed they were separated or something). The pain and anguish was written all over his face, and yet he affirmed that he knew it was God’s will. If anyone ever needed evidence that human beings can completely convince themselves of truly horrible things, this documentary should provide it. (as well as many other examples, of course – like the Heaven’s Gate followers who willingly castrated themselves). In addition, two of the young girls who lay naked with him also insisted that it was God’s will, and they were the ones who went to Bent with the request, upon being instructed to do so by God.

In other words, the ability to “choose to believe” things that otherwise defy reason, and often morality and humanity, is hardly a desirable attribute.

[_wenglund]

It's a game of Mother-May-I - which is appropriate, because the Mormon God is inordinately fond of Mother-May-I as well. If you don't phrase things in the certain way that God - or wade -deems appropriate, then you're out.

Talk about nit-picking. Does or does not drinking coffee keep one out of the Celestial Kingdom? Yes, it does. Now, one can talk about WHY that is - perhaps refusing to follow all God's commandments, even the ones that don't make sense - indicates the lack of the type of personality and faith required for the Celestial Kingdom - but Scottie's point remains. Drinking coffee will keep one out of the Celestial Kingdom.

Yes, Scottie, the choice is yours. You should be able to 'choose' to believe that, for example, God taught Joseph Smith how to find the gold plates and translate them by having him use a peep stone to dig for slippery buried treasure as a youth. You can 'choose' to believe that God wanted Joseph Smith to practice polgyamy sooooo very badly that he sent an angel with a sword to ensure it. You can 'choose' to believe that it makes sense that God allows the prophet to intermix his own opinion with the mind of the LORD while addressing the body of the church, in the name of Jesus Christ, while functioning in his role as prophet, while expecting members to be able to use the same spirit of discernment that failed the prophet in the first place. You can 'choose' to believe that God thought prompting Brigham Young to NOT teach Adam/God would constitute God being "over-protective" and "holding our hands". You can 'choose' to believe that the Holy Ghost refused to prompt past prophets to NOT teach racist, obnoxious things about African-Americans because to do so would be to be "over-protective" and "holding our hands"... but you have to 'choose' to believe that this same God who abhors being over-protective and holding our hands still inspired the prophet to tell members how many earrings to wear.

It's easy, Scottie. You can choose to believe. Just close your eyes tight and repeat "I DO believe in spooks, I do, I do, I do, I DO believe in spooks"... whoops, substitute LDS church for spooks, and you'll have it. And don't forget to ignore the man behind the curtain. It will also help to turn off the rational part of your mind while contemplating these things.

In case you have any doubt this will work, just ask Wayne Bent's followers, who also 'choose' to believe that God ordered Wayne to 'marry' his son's, and another man's wife, and God ordered Wayne to lay naked with underage girls.

Apparently, something I said has triggered in Beastie a major episode of hysteria. Who would have thought that the mere mention of joy and love and Christlike character would engender within her such defensive madness (to the point of making the words she conveniently put into my mouth entirely unrecognizable to me)? Clearly, for such noxiuos weeds of delusionary stereotyping to proliferate as they have, requires the field of her mind to be heavily fertilized with religious prejudice, if not bigotry. And to think she see herself in a position to mock. The irony is thick, though evidently lost on her.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Is there anyone willing and able to address what I actually said?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_beastie]

Wade - you're a hoot.

[_Dr. Shades]

Is there anyone willing and able to address what I actually said?

No. We are your intellectual inferiors, Wade. Haven't you noticed by now?

[_harmony]

Clearly, for such noxiuos weeds of delusionary stereotyping to proliferate as they have, requires the field of her mind to be heavily fertilized with religious prejudice, if not bigotry. And to think she see herself in a position to mock. The irony is thick, though evidently lost on her.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Back away from the garden chemicals, Wade. Otherwise, Shades is going to have to issue us all shovels.