Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

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_beastie
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _beastie »

These are just a few easily found teachings about the stupor of thought that correspond completely with my own understanding of the matter. As I stated, it wasn’t just silence that meant no - it was silence combined with negative feelings of fear, confusion, or depression.

Some misunderstandings about prayer can be clarified by realizing that the scriptures define principles for effective prayer, but they do not assure when a response will be given. Actually, He will reply in one of three ways. First, you can feel the peace, comfort, and assurance that confirm that your decision is right. Or second, you can sense that unsettled feeling, the stupor of thought, indicating that your choice is wrong. Or third—and this is the difficult one—you can feel no response.


http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD

In the Lord’s formula to Oliver Cowdery, he says that negative answers would bring a “stupor of thought,” something that would make him “forget the thing which is wrong.” (D&C 9:9.) Even though a negative answer to prayer may not cause a person to immediately “forget the thing which is wrong,” the negative feelings will make him unclear of mind.


http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD

The Lord told Joseph Smith that he spoke to his servants “in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding” (D&C 1:24). Everyone feels and describes his spiritual experiences differently. Perhaps I needed to learn how the Lord would speak to me and recognize the answers I was getting. I understand now. When I pray for an answer, I use the same formula taught to me in my youth. I study it out in my mind, make what I think is a reasoned decision, then I ask the Lord if it is right. If I feel a growing sense of excitement, I am convinced that the Lord approves of the decision. When I am fasting, the lack of food continually reminds me of the purpose. I pray frequently and feel a surging excitement and certainty as if the Holy Ghost has given an impression to my soul. If it is wrong, I become confused and depressed—finally realizing that I am experiencing a “stupor of thought.”


http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD

As I struggled to fill the call I had received, I learned valuable lessons in hearing the voice of the Spirit.
As president of a stake auxiliary, I needed a secretary. Heeding the pattern set forth in Doctrine and Covenants 9:7–9, I studied the readiness and abilities of many brethren, made a selection, and on a Sabbath afternoon placed the decision before the Lord. I thought I understood the process fairly well because I’d used it many times before. However, I felt no confirming feeling from the Spirit. After meditating, I asked again but still did not get an answer. What was wrong?
I changed my prayer and asked instead, “If this brother is not the correct selection, please cause my bosom to burn within me.” Nothing happened.
Lesson one for me: The Spirit does not bear witness to that which is not correct. Neither request could be answered because both dealt with wrong decisions. Suddenly I realized that I had experienced a “stupor of thought” (D&C 9:9) in both cases and that I needed to “study it out” (v. 8) again.
Another day came, and I presented another name to the Lord. Still no confirmation came. For some time after that, I studied scriptures and prayerfully meditated upon the problem. After I had presented more than a dozen names, all without results, the selection process became more difficult: I would have to consider brethren for whom human wisdom cried out, “There is little chance the Lord will approve him at this time.”
In the meantime, a very close friend of mine who served as secretary in a social club was making a struggle to become active in the Church. He had great ability and was a man of integrity but lacked, in my judgment, spiritual maturity. Nevertheless, I finally submitted his name to the Lord. A penetrating burning filled my bosom. There could be no mistake. He was the one the Lord wanted to serve as secretary in the organization I presided over.
Lesson two for me: Stay at it until you receive confirmation or experience a stupor of thought. Sometimes we pray for inspiration but fail to take time to determine “if it be right” (D&C 9:8). The Lord counseled Oliver Cowdery, “You have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me” (v. 7). When answers don’t come immediately, I’ve learned to return to studying out the issues and forming new decisions until these steps bring a discernible result.

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD

Read Doctrine and Covenants 6:22–23 and Doctrine and Covenants 9:8.
Explain that if for some reason we have not chosen correctly, the Lord has promised that he will reveal that our decision is wrong by leaving us with an uncomfortable feeling or serious doubt. The scriptures refer to this as a “stupor of thought.” When this occurs, we must start the decision-making process over again.


http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD

I fought against accepting the answer was “no” – that’s why it took me so long to finally let go. Learning the church wasn’t true was the most frightening experience of my life, and one I didn’t welcome.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _beastie »

Simple. The Prophet has neither the time nor the desire to micromanage our lives. He teaches principles and the members interpret them using their own revelation and with God's help personalize it. For example, an Apostle gives a talk on Missionary work and gives some suggestions on how to be more effective. The member feels impressed that he needs to improve but doesn't think the suggestions given will work for him. He prays about it and considers what he should do about it. Then revelation comes and he makes changes to his life in conformity with the will of God.


Who's talking about micromanaging lives? We're talking about broad teachings, such as whether or not African-Americans are the seed of cain.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_The Nehor
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _The Nehor »

beastie wrote:I fought against accepting the answer was “no” – that’s why it took me so long to finally let go. Learning the church wasn’t true was the most frightening experience of my life, and one I didn’t welcome.


Wait, are you saying that you asked if the Church was true and you think God told you no?

Those examples seem accurate to me though I've never felt the depression aspect myself. Despair doesn't seem to fit in though. I've been told by the scriptures that despair comes from iniquity. I can't see God using it to communicate.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Scottie
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _Scottie »

wenglund wrote:Scottie,

You are confusing the notion of "God saying things in a way that the deaf won't hear" with the notion of "people hearing things that they may mistakenly attribute to God". Do you not see or hear the difference?

I was speaking about the former, whereas you quoted me and then spoke about the latter. That, ironically, is confusion. :wink:

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Just because you claim to know what God is really saying doesn't make it so. Every religious zealot claims this same thing, including the terrorists.

I have to question a God who speaks in riddles and parables and metaphors, expects us all to decipher what is being said, and not have any confusion??
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman

I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
_beastie
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _beastie »

Wait, are you saying that you asked if the Church was true and you think God told you no?

Those examples seem accurate to me though I've never felt the depression aspect myself. Despair doesn't seem to fit in though. I've been told by the scriptures that despair comes from iniquity. I can't see God using it to communicate.


Oh, gee, who should I trust to accurately relay church teachings? Nehor, or the church itself via its publications shared on its website? That's a tough choice, but I'll have to go with door B.

The teachings I shared clearly state what I have also asserted - that the church teaches that the stupor of thought may be described as negative emotions experienced during the prayer, such as confusion and depression.

Yes, I prayed to know whether or not the church was true. I also phrased it in about as many different ways as I could think of to cover all bases. I tried "is the LDS church the only church that has the authority to perform sacred ordinances in the name of JC", in case God was hedging about what "true" meant, among other attempts - all with the same result.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_The Nehor
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _The Nehor »

beastie wrote:
Simple. The Prophet has neither the time nor the desire to micromanage our lives. He teaches principles and the members interpret them using their own revelation and with God's help personalize it. For example, an Apostle gives a talk on Missionary work and gives some suggestions on how to be more effective. The member feels impressed that he needs to improve but doesn't think the suggestions given will work for him. He prays about it and considers what he should do about it. Then revelation comes and he makes changes to his life in conformity with the will of God.


Who's talking about micromanaging lives? We're talking about broad teachings, such as whether or not African-Americans are the seed of cain.


If you doubt that teaching pray about it and figure it out. It's not rocket science.

I'm almost certain that if you follow my family line back Cain is somewhere in there. I prayed about it and got practical advice.

1. I'm in no position to evaluate the past teachings.
2. This teaching asks nothing of me. I was born after the Priesthood Ban was removed.
3. The commandments I've been taught are clear regarding charity and the abhorrence God holds for racism.
4. Why people were denied the Priesthood by God is a question I am ill-equipped to deal with. With God's foreknowledge he could have used this to some advantage in ways so individual it would take omniscience to understand it. To be honest, I feel the same way about women and the Priesthood.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_Scottie
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _Scottie »

The Nehor wrote:Those examples seem accurate to me though I've never felt the depression aspect myself. Despair doesn't seem to fit in though. I've been told by the scriptures that despair comes from iniquity. I can't see God using it to communicate.

Hmm... I have heard Faith-Promoting Rumor's about converts who were despairing over religion when they met the missionaries. Without this despair, they would have never let them in.

Apparently, if these stories are true, God uses despair as long as it brings people into the LDS church.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman

I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
_The Nehor
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _The Nehor »

beastie wrote:Oh, gee, who should I trust to accurately relay church teachings? Nehor, or the church itself via its publications shared on its website? That's a tough choice, but I'll have to go with door B.


I'd got with Church publications but you may want to pray about it to achieve certainty.

The teachings I shared clearly state what I have also asserted - that the church teaches that the stupor of thought may be described as negative emotions experienced during the prayer, such as confusion and depression.


I disagree that this manifestation would include despair. I find the quotes about depression troubling as well. Luckily I prayed about it and have decided to disregard that one based on the response. See? It's easy.

Yes, I prayed to know whether or not the church was true. I also phrased it in about as many different ways as I could think of to cover all bases. I tried "is the LDS church the only church that has the authority to perform sacred ordinances in the name of JC", in case God was hedging about what "true" meant, among other attempts - all with the same result.


Okay.....messing with the phraseology that much makes me question how much faith was involved. But, I know nothing of it so my analysis is worthless.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_The Nehor
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _The Nehor »

Scottie wrote:Hmm... I have heard Faith-Promoting Rumor's about converts who were despairing over religion when they met the missionaries. Without this despair, they would have never let them in.

Apparently, if these stories are true, God uses despair as long as it brings people into the LDS church.


I've heard those too. I see a distinct difference though. In one case God is giving people despair and in another he is using despair already there. I am amazed at how God can make use of things that seem to be largely negative (the Fall is a big one) and turn them to good.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_wenglund
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Re: Another Anti-Mormon Who Just Doesn't Get It

Post by _wenglund »

The Nehor wrote:I think Prophets and Apostles pray for inspiration and teach and act on it. I do not believe this means that every word out of their mouth is the personal opinion of God. They're mortal and do the best they can. They have the responsibility and the right to convey the Word of God to the best of their ability (and they do a good job). Those who listen then take that work and interpret it themselves (as to how to use said revelation) using revelation from God. This means that member can't rely on Prophets absolutely and that they can't ignore them.


It would seems more than a little bizarre that you would have to explain such seemingly obvious and basic principles were Beastie actually in a position to lecture God and his Church about the need for clarity--and this, ironically, as a non-believer.

But, since she clearly is not, then her thinking she is, and doing so anyway, provides the perfect object lesson for the point you and I and other LDS have been trying to get across. In the immortal words of of the prison captain, of "Cool Hand Luke" fame:

"Some people you just can't reach."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
"Why should I care about being consistent?" --Mister Scratch (MD, '08)
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