Ed Smart's comments about Jaycee Dugard's kidnapping

[_Morrissey]

I love the comparisons.

Joseph Smith was a polygamist, who may or may not have had sex with his plural wives all of whom consented and lived normal lives.

Are you really this naïve about the nature of power relationships and the reality of constrained free will within the context of power relationships?

No, I know how dangerous they can be. I just have no evidence whatsoever that this applied at all to Utah women on any type of large scale. No one provides any except for the vague idea that polygamy is somehow inherently tied to this control mentality because it has sometimes been that way in the past and is sometimes that way now.

Guess what boys and girls.....marriage in general has always been that way! Who woulda guessed?

To quote Joseph Smith when asked if he abducted Emma for marriage:

Why don't you ask the polygamous women? Read the journals. I've read those in my own family. They include a girl who was 'abducted' (read: converted) in England when young, disowned by her family, packed up and went to Utah. She married of her own free will. She loved her husband and her children. Marriage wasn't perfect but it was happy. She was his second wife.

However if you want to maintain the fiction Sir Arthur Conan Doyle created feel free. I prefer the actual accounts to fiction myself. To each their own.

So from a sample size of 1, you've deduced that women in polygamous marriages were happy, fulfilled, and entered into them always with 100% free will?

And from this you deduce the same for all of Joseph Smith's polygamous liaisons?

Yes, I'm sure also that ALL the child brides in the FLDS entered into their marriages 100% out of free will and are all happy, content, and glad that they are married to some middle-aged geezer.

God, but you are either naïve as hell, or dumb as hell, probably both.

[_The Nehor]

Such a developed and well thought out argument. Do sticks and stones not break your bones either?

It's the only response to the historical fantasies you entertain. Please create an actual argument that Brigham Young franchised White Slavery by asking people to immigrate and I'll refute it.

[_The Nehor]

(utter trash, wishywashy defense of polygamy and useless drivel)

...because it has sometimes been that way in the past and is sometimes that way now.

(more of the same)

Wow, um...just wow. See? You are right, easy as pie to refute something if you just give snappy one line posts.

Since you're been doing it for years I see no need to congratulate you on this discovery.

[_The Nehor]

So from a sample size of 1, you've deduced that women in polygamous marriages were happy, fulfilled, and entered into them always with 100% free will?

And from this you deduce the same for all of Joseph Smith's polygamous liaisons?

Yes, I'm sure also that ALL the child brides in the FLDS entered into their marriages 100% out of free will and are all happy, content, and glad that they are married to some middle-aged geezer.

God, but you are either naïve as hell, or dumb as hell, probably both.

No, it's actually a sample size of about a dozen.

I deduce it becuase I have never found the opposite except in one case. That would be Ann Eliza. However, i don't believe her. From reading about her (in stuff she wrote) all I can conclude is that she had a 'princess complex' and I think this is further evidenced by the fact that no one would stay married to her even monogamously. I can't say I blame them.

I'm not talking about the FLDS Church. The FLDS Church lives in compounds cut off from the rest of the world. The LDS did not. They lived in communities. In Utah they were a little cut off but again, reading the stories of those who accepted plural marriage I do not see any coercion or compulsion. Most of the women thought about it, prayed about it, and decided. I have yet to see evidence for a forced marriage.

Again, I think this is a fantasy.

[_DarkHelmet]

I'm not talking about the FLDS Church. The FLDS Church lives in compounds cut off from the rest of the world. The LDS did not. They lived in communities. In Utah they were a little cut off but again, reading the stories of those who accepted plural marriage I do not see any coercion or compulsion. Most of the women thought about it, prayed about it, and decided. I have yet to see evidence for a forced marriage.

Again, I think this is a fantasy.

If women were not forced into polygamy, then why was polygamy presented as a revelation from God? Do you think the women would have agreed to it if it was not presented to them as a revelation from God? Why do you think these women prayed about it to confirm for themselves that it was a revelation from God? Did Joseph Smith tell people that an angel with a flaming sword commanded him to enter into plural marriage?

Since polygamy was a commandment from God, and people were even threatened with destruction if they didn't do it, how is that not forced?

[_Morrissey]

So from a sample size of 1, you've deduced that women in polygamous marriages were happy, fulfilled, and entered into them always with 100% free will?

And from this you deduce the same for all of Joseph Smith's polygamous liaisons?

Yes, I'm sure also that ALL the child brides in the FLDS entered into their marriages 100% out of free will and are all happy, content, and glad that they are married to some middle-aged geezer.

God, but you are either naïve as hell, or dumb as hell, probably both.

No, it's actually a sample size of about a dozen.

I deduce it becuase I have never found the opposite except in one case. That would be Ann Eliza. However, i don't believe her. From reading about her (in stuff she wrote) all I can conclude is that she had a 'princess complex' and I think this is further evidenced by the fact that no one would stay married to her even monogamously. I can't say I blame them.

I'm not talking about the FLDS Church. The FLDS Church lives in compounds cut off from the rest of the world. The LDS did not. They lived in communities. In Utah they were a little cut off but again, reading the stories of those who accepted plural marriage I do not see any coercion or compulsion. Most of the women thought about it, prayed about it, and decided. I have yet to see evidence for a forced marriage.

Again, I think this is a fantasy.

Hey numbnuts, a sample size of 12 from a population of thousands is as valid as a sample size of 1. Or did you completely flunk out of statistics for morons?

The FLDS IS the 21st century version of 19th century Mormon polygamy. Some differences, but many, many similarities.

I am 100% certain that many of the polygamous brides in the FLDS community (even 12 of them) are as content as a beetle in a pile of dog crap. Someone with your brilliant powers of observation/deduction would look at them and conclude that FLDS polygamy was the most wonderful thing on earth.

If you really, truly believe that there was/is no social, religious, or other coercion in polygamous religious societies, you are the one living in a fantasy, that and your powers of as an observer of the human condition is on par with Sarah Palin's.

[_The Nehor]

Hey numbnuts, a sample size of 12 from a population of thousands is as valid as a sample size of 1. Or did you completely flunk out of statistics for morons?

I'll take that over the sample size of 0 with which critics are making these inane accusations.

The FLDS IS the 21st century version of 19th century Mormon polygamy. Some differences, but many, many similarities.

No, no it's not. About the only thing they have in common is polygamy.

I am 100% certain that many of the polygamous brides in the FLDS community (even 12 of them) are as content as a beetle in a pile of dog s***. Someone with your brilliant powers of observation/deduction would look at them and conclude that FLDS polygamy was the most wonderful thing on earth.

However, unlike 19th Century LDS polygamy they have a substantial number of defectors complaining about horrid conditions.

If you really, truly believe that there was/is no social, religious, or other coercion in polygamous religious societies, you are the one living in a fantasy, that and your powers of as an observer of the human condition is on par with Sarah Palin's.

I didn't say any such thing. Of course there was some. There's some in today's monogamous society, inside the Church and out. I am not convinced that they were worse then the people in the 1800's back east.

My sample size is small. However, most of the accusations are along the lines of, "It could have been bad, therefore it did." I don't see any sample coming from the critics.

You might be guilty, therefore you are. The motto of critics of the LDS Church everywhere. If there's a remote possibility that something sinister was going on....then there was.

[_DarkHelmet]

The FLDS IS the 21st century version of 19th century Mormon polygamy. Some differences, but many, many similarities.

No, no it's not. About the only thing they have in common is polygamy.

Really? This is from the FLDS website in the Beliefs section. I see a lot more similarities than just polygamy.

And now, above all, we are indebted to God for His having come in the first place, to provide these bodies for those spirits to dwell in, that they might have the opportunity to bring the ascendancy of the spirit over this body, bring it into subjection; to perfect and purify it under the plan of salvation that we may become like Him; for it is the work and purpose of God to bring to pass the immortality and the eternal life of man. Secondly, in the meridian of time, the Savior of the world was sent, a God to redeem and to mediate between us and our Father, to overcome the bands of death, to atone for the original sin and for ours, if we would believe and obey. Thirdly, the great Witness and Testator, Joseph the Prophet, was raised up to restore the knowledge of God, the plan of salvation; and above all, the holy Priesthood for the winding up scene, in preparation for the second and glorious coming of our Savior and the coming of our Father Adam in Adam-ondi-Ahman. Now we are the recipients of this knowledge and of these blessings and these graces of God. God has set us up in business, so to speak, and for all of these things we are indebted to Him. Though we should give all, everything we have, our lives, we are all still indebted to our Father, and we would be unwise and unprofitable servants if we did not come to realize these things.

President Rulon T. Jeffs October 4, 1964

[_The Nehor]

Really? This is from the FLDS website in the Beliefs section. I see a lot more similarities than just polygamy.

And now, above all, we are indebted to God for His having come in the first place, to provide these bodies for those spirits to dwell in, that they might have the opportunity to bring the ascendancy of the spirit over this body, bring it into subjection; to perfect and purify it under the plan of salvation that we may become like Him; for it is the work and purpose of God to bring to pass the immortality and the eternal life of man. Secondly, in the meridian of time, the Savior of the world was sent, a God to redeem and to mediate between us and our Father, to overcome the bands of death, to atone for the original sin and for ours, if we would believe and obey. Thirdly, the great Witness and Testator, Joseph the Prophet, was raised up to restore the knowledge of God, the plan of salvation; and above all, the holy Priesthood for the winding up scene, in preparation for the second and glorious coming of our Savior and the coming of our Father Adam in Adam-ondi-Ahman. Now we are the recipients of this knowledge and of these blessings and these graces of God. God has set us up in business, so to speak, and for all of these things we are indebted to Him. Though we should give all, everything we have, our lives, we are all still indebted to our Father, and we would be unwise and unprofitable servants if we did not come to realize these things.

President Rulon T. Jeffs October 4, 1964

Their stated beliefs are similar. Their culture is not, not even in the 1800's.

They fight to avoid education. The LDS Church encourages it. Joseph and Brigham always did.

We send out missionaries and try to be a light on the hill. They hide in compounds.

We embrace unsinful new advances. They pretend they're still from a century back.

We hold our public meetings so all can attend. They do not.

I could go on.....

[_DarkHelmet]

Their stated beliefs are similar. Their culture is not, not even in the 1800's.

They fight to avoid education. The LDS Church encourages it. Joseph and Brigham always did.

We send out missionaries and try to be a light on the hill. They hide in compounds.

We embrace unsinful new advances. They pretend they're still from a century back.

We hold our public meetings so all can attend. They do not.

I could go on.....

CFR. Where are you getting this information? Instead of talking to FLDS critics maybe you should talk to happy, faithful, FLDS members. 19th century Mormons faced the same type of "they're weird" accusations that you are tossing at the FLDS. You are simply reinforcing the claim that today's FLDS are modern versions of 19th century Mormons.