Hey everyone, I'm new here!

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Uncle Dale
_Emeritus
Posts: 3685
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:02 am

Re: Hey everyone, I'm new here!

Post by _Uncle Dale »

Gazelam wrote:...
the above questions
...


Well gol'durn it! Miss Moneypenny (or who ever she was) is an agent of the borg -- so, I guess we're
stuck with Roger (sigh!)

Back to the list with out ontology (or oncology, or whatever)...

"Does man play a role in his own salvation beyond an initial confession of Christ as Savior?"
Now THERE is a question for Martin Luther -- indeed!

Leaving aside for a moment the question of what "salvation" might be, we are left with a
rock and a hard place -- and we sinners squeezed squarely in between.

If John Calvin was correct, then we are elected from all eternity to salvation or damnation;
and there isn't a damn thing we can do to change the situation. We only try to obey the commandments
because they are commandments. We only have faith, because it is given to us by a higher power. Our
most elevated, well-meaning efforts are but filthy rags, meriting us naught but eternal torment.

If John Calvin is correct, Grace is entirely Sovereign -- and comes no matter our nature and acts --
and comes no matter whether we acknowledge it or not.

On the other hand there is that other John -- Rev. Wesley -- who tells us that we might take a
page from the book of Arminius, and notice that election is voluntary. We can (more or less)
choose to join the elect -- choose to repent -- choose to increase in faith -- choose to be saved.

If Wesley is right, then Luther is at least partly right. We can "sin boldly," knowing that five minutes
later our repentance will usher us back into the communion of the saints.

And -- if we exercise even more faith, our salvation is even more assured -- and, if we exercise
perfect faith, we ourselves are perfected. -- Well, Luther might not have agreed there; but Wesley
would have at least sung a hymn with us.

So -- does the power of God fall upon me, on my way to Damascus? Am I thus converted and
experience a change of heart? And perhaps even "born again" before baptism? A puppet of
Sovereign Grace?

Or -- do I hear Sidney Rigdon preaching that ALL I must do is to agree that Jesus is the Christ,
and come down into Sidney's baptismal pool, where my sins will be washed away -- all due to
my choice. God has become my puppet.

Methinks Wesley would have walked right between Calvin and Rigdon, passing Luther on the way.

UD
-- the discovery never seems to stop --
_Roger
_Emeritus
Posts: 1905
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:29 am

Re: Hey everyone, I'm new here!

Post by _Roger »

Gaz:

Even though the thought of you "feeling me out" is kinda creepy, I'll play along...

1.Does God possess a complete knowledge of the future?

More complete than anyone else's.

2. Was the flood of Noah local or global?

Yes.

3. Was Christ both fully God and fully human during his ministry or did he relinquish his divinity for a season?

Philippians 2:6-8

4. Are only the predestined saved or do all people have a potential for full salvation? (This kind of ties in to the knowledge of the future subject)

John 3:16

5. Do men and women enjoy eternal security from the moment of their spiritual rebirth or must they endure faithfully to the end to have a hope of eternal life?

John 10:27-30; Ephesians 2:8-9; John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10

6. What happens to babies who die?

That is one for God to answer.

7. The fate of the unevangelized.

ditto above

8. Is baptism essential to salvation and to whom should it be administered - infants or mature believers?

A. No.
B. Both.

9. Should women serve in certain ministerial capacities?

Sure.

10. Does man play a role in his own salvation beyond an initial confession of Christ as Savior? What is the meaning and place of works?

A. No. See Ephesians 2:8-9.
B. Evidence. Good works are the evidence of what has already occured.

James 2:
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works


There is a difference between salvation and sanctification.

11. Is man a child of God or a mere creation of God? What are the psychological effects of each of these views?

I love the biased language here "mere creation of" ! -smile-

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:


No mention of works there, Gaz. Also note that those who believed were NOT sons of God prior to becoming sons of God.

12. Should wives submit to their husbands and if so how and in what way?

Oh man! Bringing them dinner in bed, for starters.... giving back scratches upon demand... etc. etc.

Now I have some questions for you....

1. How do you interpret Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:6 and how do you reconcile them with LDS theology?

2. Does Heavenly Father have his own "heavenly father"? If so how far back does the chain go?

3. Does Heavenly Father have more than one wife?

4. Will Zina Huntington Jacobs Smith Young be Henry Jacob's wife in the Celestial Kingdom or Brigham Young's wife or Joseph Smith's wife?

I have a lot more but I'll leave it at that for a while.

All the best!
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."

- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
_Dr. Shades
_Emeritus
Posts: 14117
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:07 pm

Re: Hey everyone, I'm new here!

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Roger wrote:by the way.... Shades.... you never welcomed me to your forum. Feeling very hurt, dejected and unwanted as a result. Hope you can sleep at night.

Of course I welcomed you to my site! You just had to read it with your spiritual eyes.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_MCB
_Emeritus
Posts: 4078
Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:14 pm

Re: Hey everyone, I'm new here!

Post by _MCB »

Just to prove that I am who I say I am.

1. Yes

2. Local

3. fully God and fully human during his ministry

4. only the predestined are saved, however, we, as mere humans, must assume that all are to be saved. God’s pure will is that all are to be saved, but, we are mere humans.

5. must they endure faithfully to the end to have a hope of eternal life? “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling”

6. What happens to babies who die? Personal belief in limbo for the unbaptized

7. The fate of the unevangelized. Personal belief in limbo.

8. Is baptism essential to salvation and to whom should it be administered - infants or mature believers? Infants. Not essential under certain conditions.

9. Should women serve in certain ministerial capacities? Yes

10. What is the meaning and place of works? Works are both a sign of faith and a reinforce to faith

11. Is man a child of God or a mere creation of God? What are the psychological effects of each of these views? Man is a child of God, not a mere animal. Man has a different kind of soul from an animal, which includes free will.

12. Should wives submit to their husbands and if so how and in what way? Only if husband respects her and her opinions and beliefs.
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm
_solomarineris
_Emeritus
Posts: 1207
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:51 am

Re: Hey everyone, I'm new here!

Post by _solomarineris »

missmoneygirl wrote:Hello all, not sure if this is the correct forum to post intro's in? Please move if wrong, sorry.

Anyway... I'm missmoneygirl and I'm new. Please welcome me, I'm glad to be a member here. :)


Hi Miss,
I think you are going to enjoy this board. It is laid back and mellow, things are not taken very seriously.
Welcome
"As I say, it never ceases to amaze me how gullible some of our Church members are"
Harold B. Lee, "Admonitions for the Priesthood of God", Ensign, Jan 1973
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Re: Hey everyone, I'm new here!

Post by _Gazelam »

Thanks to everyone who answered the questions! Always fun to hear peoples answers on those. There was a thread a while back where many people on the board answered them:

Signifigant questions of belief

Questions posed to me:
How do you interpret Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:6 and how do you reconcile them with LDS theology?


These verses are addressing the difficulties in dealign with an idolatrous people. they had Gods for everything, and statues and fetishes aplenty to worship and pray to all these things. God is stating that those idols were false deities.

I don't think there is anyone who would deny that Christ is God. In that same vein though, Christ prays to his Father. The intercessory prayer (John 17:19-23) describes how he himself came to be God, and how others might follow his example in doing so.

Does Heavenly Father have his own "heavenly father"? If so how far back does the chain go?


This doctrine is taken from Joseph Smith's King Follet discourse. In it he states that Christ did what he had seen his Father do, namely lay down his life and take it up again, meaning that the Father was himself resurrected. This doctrine states that we are all following a perfect plan of salvation, and that we are all capable of doing great things through obedience to heavenly principles.

The doctrine was never fleshed out more than that, and anything involving "how far back" the chain goes would be pure speculation.

Does Heavenly Father have more than one wife?


Early Presidents of the Church have stated yes. This is to be understood to mean that he would not give us a commandment that he himself would not practice in purity and holiness.

Will Zina Huntington Jacobs Smith Young be Henry Jacob's wife in the Celestial Kingdom or Brigham Young's wife or Joseph Smith's wife?


She will be the wife of the one she was sealed to for time and all eternity that the Holy Ghost sanctified. No work of sealing is complete without the stamp of the Holy Ghosts approval. If the Holy Ghost thought there was any impropriety then the marriage would be null and void.

thanks Roger

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Re: Hey everyone, I'm new here!

Post by _moksha »

Gazelam wrote:Damn, that sucks.



Given the right programming, even those spam-bots might answer those 12 questions to your satisfaction. Add in A.I. and some practice runs, it could even answer them in the style of Elder Bruce McConkie.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
_Dr. Shades
_Emeritus
Posts: 14117
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:07 pm

Re: Hey everyone, I'm new here!

Post by _Dr. Shades »

solomarineris wrote:Hi Miss,
I think you are going to enjoy this board. It is laid back and mellow, things are not taken very seriously.
Welcome

Hi solomarineris,

Please read the following post:

viewtopic.php?p=263339#p263339
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Roger
_Emeritus
Posts: 1905
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:29 am

Re: Hey everyone, I'm new here!

Post by _Roger »

Shades:

Of course I welcomed you to my site! You just had to read it with your spiritual eyes.


I rest my case.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."

- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
_Roger
_Emeritus
Posts: 1905
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:29 am

Re: Hey everyone, I'm new here!

Post by _Roger »

Gaz:

How do you interpret Isaiah 43:10 and Isaiah 44:6 and how do you reconcile them with LDS theology?


These verses are addressing the difficulties in dealign with an idolatrous people. they had Gods for everything,


Not really. The people around them did, sure enough, and some Isrealites were led into their idolatry, but the Isrealites were monotheists:

Hear, O Israel: the Lord is our God, the Lord is One - Deuteronomy 6:4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shema_Yisrael


and statues and fetishes aplenty to worship and pray to all these things. God is stating that those idols were false deities.


He's also plainly stating that there is no other God... period.

Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


...and...

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.


This directly contradicts LDS doctrine.

Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any. - Isaiah 44:8


If LDS doctrine is true, then God has just denied his own father.

I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: - Isaiah 45:5


Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. - Deut. 4:35

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. - Deut. 4:39


Judaism is monotheistic. Although Nephi never existed, if he would have, he would have been a monotheist. LDS doctrine directly contradicts this.

I don't think there is anyone who would deny that Christ is God.


Hence the doctrine of the Trinity.

In that same vein though, Christ prays to his Father. The intercessory prayer (John 17:19-23) describes how he himself came to be God, and how others might follow his example in doing so.


No it never "describes how he himself came to be God." That is a false doctrine of Joseph Smith. Instead John 1 proclaims that Jesus was God in the beginning:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1


LDS polytheism cannot be reconciled with the monotheistic God of the Bible.
"...a pious lie, you know, has a great deal more influence with an ignorant people than a profane one."

- Sidney Rigdon, as quoted in the Quincy Whig, June 8, 1839, vol 2 #6.
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