"This is NOT the place to ask questions"!

[_Jersey Girl]

Jersey Girl, you honestly can't think of a scenario where someone who zzyzxyx trusts can verify the story without outing zxzzyx to his ward?

Are you capable of intelligent thought?

Which scenario are you thinking of? How would that work?

[_MCB]

zzxzzyx's story is perfectly plausible to me, given my own experience. I don't doubt it one bit, because I was a victim of a similar situation. Mormon culture, and the temple recommend, and early Mormon history all support its plausibility.

It should not be a topic for debate, unless some participants are TBM's who believe all LDS are living saints, and all non-mo's are the embodiment of evil. And those participants are the most likely to be the perpetrators of such a situation.

[_beastie]

Tell me if you will, beastie, and you don't have to. Do you see/think that this fostering has ties back to the beginnings of the LDS Church?

My impression is that it does. But I know nothing.

Oh, absolutely I think it has ties back to the beginning of the LDS church, and even prior to that official organization. Apostates are reviled and feared even in the Book of Mormon. They are demonized and dehumanized. The Book of Mormon doesn’t use the term “apostate”, but whenever it describes the characters and fate of those who reject the true gospel, it does so in extremely pejorative terms. People don’t just leave the gospel in the Book of Mormon – they become dark and loathsome. The trend continues and accelerates after the actual foundation of the LDS church. Leaders of the church obviously felt morally justified in not only creating bigoted caricatures of apostates, but they also felt morally justified in creating false libel about “enemies” of the church, like Martha Brotherton and other women whose only “sin” was telling the truth about polygamy. Now, clearly there were some apostates that did go to extremes to persecute the church, but those few cases do not justify generalizing about an entire group of people. Besides, the pejorative generalizations started prior to the existence of a church much less an apostate from it.

My opinion, obviously as a nonbeliever, is that this trend developed due to all the secrets church leaders had from the get-go. There were secrets about the creation of the Book of Mormon that were potentially damaging. Then there were secrets about the claims the church was making, and then secrets about polygamy. Apostates were in the best position to reveal those secrets, so the agenda had to be to discredit the apostates before they even opened their mouths. Members had to be given a reason to ignore anything apostates might say.

I once put together a list of adjectives that church leaders have used to describe apostates, obtained from linked or referenced sources. I’ll see if I saved a copy, but the list included the worst possible terms, such as liar, lazy, evil, etc.

I truly do not see how any person can recognize that the church does teach pejorative labels of apostates and simultaneously claim that it’s not part of the LDS culture to refrain from continuing business connections with apostates. Seriously – who would want to do business with someone whom your respected religious leaders always told you were a bunch of evil, lazy liars?

[_cksalmon]

Nevo is now rooting around in zzyzx's posting history to find proof that he's mentally ill.

Looks to me like Nevo was rooting around in zzyzx's posting history to demonstrate the utter implausibility of his Army buddy's allegedly being at his beck and call to proxy-post numerous responses in quick succession on his behalf in the deep AM.

I don't buy that for a minute. Possible? Sure. Not plausible.

cks

[_Morrissey]

I saw TBMs on MAD display the same reaction to John W's post on a woman feeling for his garment lines. Most of them find the story ridiculous and don't believe it. I've had LDS garment checking me after I began to question the church and know it happens. TBMs aren't going to experience it firsthand because they aren't the ones doubting the church. One of the first things friends and family want to know is if they still wear the garment.
I never felt anyone for their garments as a TBM, but most of us have looked for the lines when trying to figure out if someone is LDS. Yet TBMs on MAD find his story false.

In my experience, many members are similar to my wife in this sense. She is a fairly reasonable person not prone to fanatic or extreme thoughts or behaviors. She, moreover, tends to project her character traits to others and assume that other people are as reasonable as her.

My experience, however, has taught me never to underestimate a person's capacity for narrow minded, self-righteous, fanatical behavior. I've seen otherwise normal, rational people go off on something that you never would have expected before hand. Most everyone has their buttons; push them, and people react uncharacteristically. I've also seen incredibly harsh, judgmental, cruel, irrational behavior going at times to scary extremes. I don't think anyone here thinks that this kind of fanatical, irrational, scary behavior is the norm, but I do think many of us here have seen enough to accept as plausible isolated cases in which a fanatical, mob-like, circle the wagons behavior can manifest itself. Mormonism has its share of loonies, or normal people capable of loony behavior given the right circumstances.

Just because so and so has never seen this, doesn't mean it never happens. Somebody reputably as smart as Dr. Dan thinks he is should be able to recognize this.

[_Jersey Girl]

Nevo is now rooting around in zzyzx's posting history to find proof that he's mentally ill.

Looks to me like Nevo was rooting around in zzyzx's posting history to demonstrate the utter implausibility of his Army buddy's allegedly being at his beck and call to proxy-post numerous responses in quick succession on his behalf in the deep AM.

I don't buy that for a minute. Possible? Sure. Not plausible.

cks

Where is the Army buddy stationed? Do you know? Why do you think it's not plausible? Have you ever worked graves on an Army post?



.

[_cksalmon]

Where is the Army buddy stationed? Do you know? Why do you think it's not plausible? Have you ever worked graves on an Army post?

Stationed? Are you reading the same things I am, Jersey Girl? zzyzx states that he met the person in question while both were in the military--about forty years ago (1969)!--not that his "buddy" is still in the military (in his late 50's, early 60's?) working the graveyard shift at a computer terminal. So, your questions here are irrelevant.

cks