Reid rips LDS Church's Prop. 8 support

[_beastie]

Didn't Mormons generally support FDR through the New Deal?

I believe so, and despite the propaganda that states otherwise, Mormons benefited from government aide just like everyone else.

[_Jason Bourne]

I believe so, and despite the propaganda that states otherwise, Mormons benefited from government aide just like everyone else.

Yes they did support the new deal. President Grant was a democrat.

But I do not recall propoganda that Mormons did not benefit from government aid. Never heard that they did not. It is true that the current LDS welfare system, which like LDS or not. is an amazing thing, came primarily out of the depression and one Harold B. Lee who was then a stake president.

[_beastie]

In the past, some claimed that the church's own welfare system was the best way to handle the needs of the poor and eliminated the need for government intervention. I think the myth that LDS did not use public welfare grew because there was shame for members to be on the dole. This interview refers to that fact:

The old idealism revived during the Depression when the Mormon welfare system was organized to care for the Mormon poor. It was an elaborate system of productive organizations to grow and can fruit, grow sugar beets, make shoe polish and glue, the whole works. But that was all done within the church; it was sectarian reform and was not advanced through the government. In fact, it was considered a sign of shame to go on the government dole. Mormons were told to rely on the church and their own families first.

http://pewforum.org/events/?EventID=148

It is true that the LDS church created their own welfare system which undoubtedly provided relief to many. But it simply was not enough:

Finally Utah, like the rest of the nation, turned to the federal government for help. The problems of industrial capitalism had proven too heavy for individuals, private charities, or local governments to handle. Washington responded with a barrage of programs that came to be known as the New Deal. Because the depression hit Utah so hard, New Deal programs were extensive here. Per capita federal spending in Utah during the 1930s was ninth among the forty-eight states, the percentage of Utah workers on federal relief projects was far above the national average, and for every dollar Utahns sent to the nation's capital in taxes, the government sent back seven dollars through various programs.

http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapte ... ssion.html

Of course, perhaps this myth was only popular in certain regions of the country, but I certainly heard it. It's been used as justification for not supporting public welfare - all that should be taken care of through religious charities, like the LDS do.

Here's one Mormon who would strongly disagree with bcspace, and interprets the Book of Mormon in the same way my parents do:

http://www.themormonworker.org/articles ... bution.php


bcspace has been very selective in his own acceptance of the Book of Mormon. I'm particularly curious about his assertion that the Book of Mormon preaches against greed OF the poor. The Book of Mormon consistently preaches that societies' downfalls are preceded by rampant greed of the rich and neglect of the poor. God then intervenes and strikes down the greedy society. I think the Book of Mormon provides as much support for viewing bcspace as an "apostate" for his own views as he thinks it provides for viewing my parents as apostates.

[_Jason Bourne]

Beastie

I think it is worth noting that these days Bishops are told that those on FO assistance should also be encouraged to plug into and use any and all resources that are available through county and other government programs. The idea is that LDS pay taxes that support these pulic programs so they should be able to use them as well. This indeed is a turn about on the view of government assistance that was encourages right up to I would guess the early to mid 1990s. When I was a bish I called a couple to be what I termed "Government Services Specialists." They kept on top of all the programs available and helped those we were assisting in the application process for such help. In our case we had to do this because the needs so often outstripped our resources and even with that I ran a deficit of out go vs, FO income every year of about 30% or more.

[_beastie]

Thanks for that information, Jason. That seems to directly contradict bcspace's assertions on this thread. Clearly the LDS church is not opposed to government programs that uber-conservatives label "socialist". Clearly the LDS church agrees with the idea that the government can and should assume some responsibility for care for the poor and needy. Equally clear is the fact that the LDS church is not opposed to social security.

[_EAllusion]

It's a bit more complex than that I think Beastie. If I oppose some government program, I'm not necessarily obligated to not benefit from it. If the government confiscates my property in some way to fund some service, why should I not accept that service simply because I disapprove of the whole concept? This is especially true if the government's involvement is filling in a vacuum that might have resulted in more private options if not for that fact.

[_beastie]

Your example - government confiscation of property - is inappropriate for what's being discussed. We're not talking about people being forced into a certain situation. We're talking about people making a choice to benefit from government aide. In the past, the LDS church did discourage members from accepting government welfare, saying that one should rely on family and church, instead. Apparently that attitude has changed to the extent that members are encouraged to get that aide. If the LDS church was fundamentally opposed to government aide, maybe it would look the other way if members, on their own, obtained it - but they certainly wouldn't actively encourage it.

[_EAllusion]

?

Government welfare programs are funded with confiscation of property or, more subtly, by devaluing property through monetary policy. My point was the government takes your money to fund its programs, and even if you oppose for it, you are chipping in for them.

[_beastie]

Sorry, I misunderstood your example.

So in your opinion, it would be a consistent position for the LDS church to actively oppose welfare programs or social security, but at the same time actively encourage its members to benefit from those services? I think it's hypocritical. If social security, medicare, medicaid and welfare are examples of creeping socialism, then people who oppose socialism ought not to benefit from those programs. Benefiting from those programs encourage the continued existence of those programs, because they demonstrate that the programs address a legitimate need. If society can function without those examples of creeping socialism, people who oppose creeping socialism ought to be examples of how to function without them.

[_Jason Bourne]

Thanks for that information, Jason. That seems to directly contradict bcspace's assertions on this thread. Clearly the LDS church is not opposed to government programs that uber-conservatives label "socialist". Clearly the LDS church agrees with the idea that the government can and should assume some responsibility for care for the poor and needy. Equally clear is the fact that the LDS church is not opposed to social security.

On page 21 of the GHBI this is discussed. It says essentially that the ward welfare committee should become familiar with and utilize community resources. It further states that if a member uses government assistance the bishop should make sure he does not duplicate government assistance and that the member should be advised to disclose Church assistance in their attempt to receive government assistance.